topic Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java? in Operating System - HP-UX

Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

IMteam — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:55:59 GMT

Hello! We are investigating user interface technologies for future
tools in the software management and Ignite-UX space on HP-UX. We are
very interested in YOUR opinion for determining our direction.

One choice we are considering would require Java to be installed on your
system in order to run the software management tools for either a GUI
(graphical) or TUI (terminal). Command line tools would not require
Java. Please take a brief moment and provide comments on the following
questions. Your input is very much appreciated!

1) a. Would it be acceptable to deliver Java-based user interface tools
(BOTH GUI and TUI dependent on the JRE) for software management and
Ignite-UX?

b. If not, what are your concerns?

c. In the event Java is unacceptable, would performing software
management via the command line only, without the aid of a
GUI/TUI, be an okay alternative (or do you want the user
interface)?

2) a. If you have any other comments on UI directions in the software
management space, please feel free to provide any other thoughts.
(For example: Web/browser UIs vs. X11 vs. TUI, etc.)

b. Do you have any other restrictions/guidelines specific to security,
networking and/or installed software on your systems that may influence
or impact the ability to perform software management functions?

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Patrick Wallek — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:53:32 GMT

1a) NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1b) I DESPISE Java. If the applications are not written well, they are junk and perform poorly!!! Also, I do not want to have to worry about installing more software to make something work. If I don't have to install Java on a machine I don't.

1c) There are times when I do use the GUI, though few and far between, but when I do I want it to work!

2a) Stick with an X11 type GUI or TUI. I know those will work. I don't have to install Java or a browser or anything like that.

2b) None right now, but again why should I have to install something I normally wouldn't?

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Laurie Gellatly — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:16:22 GMT

1a) NO.
1b)Imagine how a user would feel the day they
NEED to install a new patch or recover a
system with ignite and find they can't
because of the wrong version of JRE. Do you
want to accept that support call? So my concern
is that adding Java to these critical tools
will just make their operation more likely
to fail and introduces extra dependancies.
1c) Most swinstall and ignite work I do is
via the command line. I've had both good and
bad experiences with the GUI. It could be argued
that it has advantages when you're in unfamiliar
territory, so keeping it would be a advantage for those times.

2a) Seems to me that a not overly fancy
(across browser compatalbe) web interface
would be a better way to go but with no
dependancies on Java or Javascript even
being active on the client.

2b) Working in a firewalled environment means
there will always be unavailable ports.
X11 may not be allowed. HTTP on port 80 may
be unavailable. HTTPS and SSH seems to be
the most favoured direction.

P.S. my consulting rates are reasonable. ;{)

...Laurie :{)

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Steven E. Protter — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:15:21 GMT

1) a. Would it be acceptable to deliver Java-based user interface tools
(BOTH GUI and TUI dependent on the JRE) for software management and
Ignite-UX?

It would be accceptable. I would however not use them.

b. If not, what are your concerns?
Java is unreliable. Reliance on java tools could cause version conflict issues with Oracle which requires and certifies with only certain versions of java.

I quote Bill Hassell: Real Sysadmins don't use GUI's. As surprised as I was to read that Bill actually retired and HP was silly enough to offer him that status, my first argument with Bill was over this point. He won.

c. In the event Java is unacceptable, would performing software
management via the command line only, without the aid of a GUI/TUI, be an okay alternative (or do you want the user
interface)?

I am quite happy with SD/UX. If you provide a java tool, I'll quality control it, and possibly use it for dcumentation. I don't need any enhancement like th is.

2) a. If you have any other comments on UI directions in the software management space, please feel free to provide any other thoughts.
(For example: Web/browser UIs vs. X11 vs. TUI, etc.)

Being able to perform installations via web interfaces present another possibility of root password compromise. I Think presenting the option is fine but leave my command line alone.

b. Do you have any other restrictions/guidelines specific to security,
networking and/or installed software on your systems that may influence
or impact the ability to perform software management functions?

We don't use root password through any thin clients for fear that Microsoft IE will cache the root password on the C: drive.

SEP

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

T G Manikandan — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:27:46 GMT

1.a)NO
b)The dependencies for a tool to work is a hell.Right now things are going fine.
THink about the SAM which is replaced by kcweb,more dependencies.
Version dependent,third party software dependent ,problems.

If the dependencies are hpux proprietary then it would be OK.
Think about Oracle,still lot of bugs to be fixed in the installer section alone.
they have been with java for more than 5 yrs.

c)There can be options where java can also be used but that should not be the only way!

2.a)kcweb dependencies on Apache,some other tools.Lot of problems.

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Ed Sampson — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:34:18 GMT

I vote no. I haven't seen a java interface that worked as well as the existing X11 tools.

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

G. Vrijhoeven — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:58:07 GMT

Hi,

1a. First :I am against a performance decrease/memory increase if those can be eliminated i do not care. but i am afraid it will cost extra memory and it works slower.

1b. goto 1a

1c. I think a GUI is needed for first line support/admins and people that only use it once a year.

2a. I try not to use them but for some tasks ( with a low frequenty) it is realy usefull. The SAM log ( commands generated through the UI) is alway nice.

2b. The ablilty to install software on remote servers (push function) always can generate a security leak. I think ( and know) this must be ( is) considered. I am no security guru but i am sure HP has some.

HTH

Gideon

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Jeroen Peereboom — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:26:38 GMT

1) a. Would it be acceptable to deliver Java-based user interface tools
(BOTH GUI and TUI dependent on the JRE) for software management and
Ignite-UX?

Yes, but HP has to make damn sure that it is more or less Java version independent and that the Java product is stable and easily installed.

b. If not, what are your concerns?
My concern is that it is depending on other software to run and that you need a graphics terminal to run it.

c. In the event Java is unacceptable, would performing software
management via the command line only, without the aid of a
GUI/TUI, be an okay alternative (or do you want the user
interface)?

I like the swinstall text, menu based interface. Don't know about the Ignite interfaces.

2) a. If you have any other comments on UI directions in the software
management space, please feel free to provide any other thoughts.
(For example: Web/browser UIs vs. X11 vs. TUI, etc.)

What technology is usewd by the scure web console? Only web, or also Java?

b. Do you have any other restrictions/guidelines specific to security,
networking and/or installed software on your systems that may influence
or impact the ability to perform software management functions?
No.

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Elmar P. Kolkman — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:57:48 GMT

Please don't do this... I haven't seen any JAVA GUI that is fast enough to make it workable yet... If you want JAVA programmers to work on GUI's let them concentrate on the GUI's HP already delivers in JAVA and make them faster and less memory intensive. If they succeed with that, only then let them look at the current GUI's we have in X and try to add a JAVA GUI for the same functions. Only when those JAVA GUI's are as fast, reliable and memory independent as the X-GUI's it might be acceptable to remove the X-GUI's...

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Ravi_8 — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:05:20 GMT

Hi,

1) Yes

It makes our tasks easier

2)Since HP-UX comes with Netscape, you can provide access to create/delete files or directories through browsing

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Hoefnix — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:10:01 GMT

I aggree with almost all posts, don't convert to JAVA.
It will slow SYSADMINS work and also the applications running on the system that you try to run this GUI on.

Regards,
Peter

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Pete Randall — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:11:19 GMT

1)a. Absolutely not!!! Please, please, please don't do this!

b. Java is a pig. It sucks up resources and runs like molasses in February.

c. A CLI would be acceptable if that's the way it had to be to avoid Java. Otherwise I can't begin to see the reason not to offer both.

2)a. Web browser????? So I can install from the comfort of my living room or something?? No, thanks, I'm a hands on kind of guy. I want to be be with the patient during the operation.

b. I'm not sure where you're going with this one.

Pete

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Pete Randall — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:17:38 GMT

One thing I forgot to add:

Thankyou very much for asking! Now, please listen!!

Pete

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Armin Kunaschik — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:11:02 GMT

1a) No.

1b) It's too big, too slow and too unstable.

1c) Would be ok, if the documentation is improved.
The man-pages of swinstall/swcopy... are hard to read. installp of AIX is a good (even simpler) example how it should work.

2a) Please DON'T port everything to be usable with a web browser! A real bad example is the kernel configuration in sam in HP-UX 11.23.
The additional option of doing it over a web interface is ok... but do not ignore the ASCII-terminal user. We have 300 systems here and in certain cases I can only access them via GSP.

2b) Is it possible to make local installations without having a running swagentd? At installation time it often happens that there are DNS or resolver problems and this simply sux :-)

The rest is ok.. I like the possibility to be able to install remote packages without mounting directries around.
If you have firewalls between install server and client this makes pretty easy.

Regards,
Armin

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Victor BERRIDGE — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:23:21 GMT

Hi,

1)a. In no way...
b. Performance issues, its already difficult enough to cope with the rest of java stuff running
c. What's wrong with the user interface?
I like it - it works - are you planning to stop X support?

2)a. Im very happy with command line AND X11 GUI
b. We have here all flavors of UX, since we have not found an administration tool common to all, the less esoteric the functions, the better it is.

All the best
Victor

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Volker Borowski — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:07:39 GMT

1a) No
1b) "To run xyz-SW goto www.sun.com/wherever and install java_1.2.3.4.5 first"
When you go there, you find that java_1.2.3.4.5 is not downloadable anymore. Instead you can download java_2.3.1.2.3.
Try it, ... it runs ! But is it still supported now ?

1c) Nothing wrong with X, but if it works on a slow vt100 session it is better.
Compare to oracle:
ORAINST->fine
runInstaller -> search your own forum how many guys tried to install oracle and failed due to missing access to a graphical terminal.

2a) Terminal User Interface is always fine, because it works even on 9600Baud lines !

2b) Any additional Network port for administration agents is a potential threat. So if I can get away with ssh I would always be hapy with this.

Thank you for asking
Volker

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Anita Kelkar — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:19:27 GMT

Hello Armin,
I want to know from you that what type of problems you have faced with the web based kernel configuration tool . Actually that might help developers to improve the tools in next release.

regards
Anita

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Paula J Frazer-Campbell — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:25:43 GMT

Hi

1. NO - As many have said I want to handle my machines out of the OS box and have to install additional software.

CLI and TUI are fine with me.

Paula

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Leif Halvarsson_2 — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:08:12 GMT

Hi,
It seems as some people don't like Java.

I myself don't bother if a application is written in Java or something else if it does the job for me. And, as Java is installed by default with the OS this should not be a problem.

In difference to some other people here I actually uses the GUI versions of Ignite, SAM etc.

Web based System Administration tools would also be a good idea. In fact, Web based tools becomes more and more common.

Using command line only is like walking backwards. We are in the years of 2000 now , not 1960.

In summary, if HP provides good administration tools I think people also will use them. Java or not.

Re: Should swinstall & Ignite-UX tools be implemented w/Java?

Mark Greene_1 — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:30:04 GMT

1a. No, absolutely not!

1b. Performance and security; specificially, incredible lack thereof.

1c. The current GUI is just fine.

2a. The issue isn't the GUI, it's functionality. See the previous threads regarding SAM and swinstall suggestions.

2b. K.I.S.S.

mark