topic Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2) in Operating System - HP-UX

Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

SAM TEAM — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:45:33 GMT

Calling all Kernel Wizards...

We need YOUR input to help design a new Kernel Configuration area. If you have a moment, we would greatly appreciate any responses you can give to the following questions:

---------------------------------------------
1. Do you ever configure Dump Devices under Kernel Configuration in SAM? How often?

2. How would you like to access documentation on kernel paramters (Choose your top 3 methods):
a. From the command line
b. A "Help" section within SAM
c. Online web help
d. A book/manual
e. Man pages
f. Other (please specify)

3. HP is considering giving new names to the HP-UX kernel tunable parameters, since the existing names can be confusing. Examples include:
EXISTING NAME -----> NEW NAME
-------------------------------
a. maxuprc ---> max_processes_per_user
b. semmns ---> max_sysV_semaphores
c. hfs_max_ra_blocks -->
max_readahead_blocks_on_hfs

Of course, the existing names will continue to work, as aliases for the new names. Error messages and documentation will give both names.

Do you think we should give tunables new names like these? Why or why not? Do you have suggestions on how the new names should be chosen?

4. The Kernel Configuration area in SAM is going to change. It will have a CLI and a GUI (or a web interface). Tell us what type of CLI works best for YOU:

- A SINGLE command OR
- SEVERAL different commands with fewer options

(If you prefer SEVERAL commands, which of the following features should be grouped together?
a. Set kernel parameters
b. View a change log for kernel parameters
c. Provide data to diagnose kernel parameter problems
d. Set thresholds/Generate notifications when you reach kernel parameter limits
e. Define groups/values of kernel parameters and deploy them on other systems
f. Include/Exclude device drivers and other kernel modules from the built kernel
g. Display documentation on kernel parameters

---------------------------------------------

THANK YOU for your input! This helps us design a better product for YOU! :)

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Tracey — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:01:24 GMT

1. When I build a machine only. I've never reconfigured.
2. b. A "Help" section within SAM
e. Man pages
c. On-Line Web help
3. I like the new names, easier to remember!
4. Single

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Bruce Regittko_1 — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:22:11 GMT

Hi,

1. Almost never and then with the command line.

2. Command line, man page, book/manual (in no partictular order)

3. I like the idea of the more descriptive names. The maxusers parameter could really use a more descriptive name.

4. I prefer a CLI with many simple commands rather than few complex commands. Your grouping suggestions are good.

--Bruce

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

John Bolene — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:27:55 GMT

1. no
2. b help section, f html pages, for that matter, man pages are much better served thru html web pages (I used man2html and have my own server that is searchable)

3. make it so, the old ones are too cryptic

4. I would have to see the various ways to choose.

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Patrick Wallek — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:39:15 GMT

1. Dump Devices under SAM - Once in a blue moon. Only when a machine configuration changes and makes such a change necessary.

2. Access kernel parm. docs - Top 3 in order - C, D, B

3. New names - I LIKE the new names scenario. More descriptive names are MUCH better.

4. I would prefer a GUI, like currently through SAM, or a web interface.

If command line is necessary I would group:
group 1 - a b f g
group 2 - c
group 3 - d
group 4 - e

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Alan Riggs — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:25:15 GMT

1. Do you ever configure Dump Devices under Kernel Configuration in SAM? How often?

Never. I use the command line.

2. How would you like to access documentation on kernel paramters (Choose your top 3 methods):
a. From the command line
e. Man pages
b. A "Help" section within SAM

3. HP is considering giving new names to the HP-UX kernel tunable parameters, since the existing names can be confusing.

Please don't. The new names seem of little value:

(1)They might encourage folks to tune the kernel without doing further.
(2)They risk confusing with any number of extant documents, procedures and recommendations both from HP and other vendors.
(3)If at any point the "aliases" become unsupported, old scripts, tools, and monitors might cease functioning properly.
(4)The increased information provided by the more unwieldy names is minimal.

4. The Kernel Configuration area in SAM is going to change. It will have a CLI and a GUI (or a web interface). Tell us what type of CLI works best for YOU:

SEVERAL different commands with fewer options. Grouped as follows:

a. Set kernel parameters
b. View a change log for kernel parameters
g. Display documentation on kernel parameters
f. Include/Exclude device drivers and other kernel modules from the built kernel

c. Provide data to diagnose kernel parameter problems
d. Set thresholds/Generate notifications when you reach kernel parameter limits

e. Define groups/values of kernel parameters and deploy them on other systems

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

James R. Ferguson — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:56:42 GMT

Hi!

1: I only configure dump devices only when setting up a new machine or cold-installing.

2. Kernel parameter documentation in man pages, on the web, and built into SAM (as currently, but expanded) are all very desirable and have value for different tasks.

3. Do *not* invent new names even if you retain the old ones! In my opinion this could become confusing and run counter to effective documentation and communication as translations between the aliases are necessitated. As *new* parameters are added, then attempt to choose names that provide logical grouping, as for instance, 'vx_" for parameters related to VxFS file systems.

4. I would like to see more of the proposed structure before commenting in detail. I like the idea of generating threshold notifications. I assume that this would be user-configurable in the new interface. Since 'kmtune' exists, I don't necessarily see the need for a command level interface, and think that SAM should remain as the GUI. Rather than a change log, I'd like to see the ability to view all parameters that differ from their defaults, including perhaps, by default template. A potentially nice feature would be advisory messages of the cross-impact of changing interrelated parameters as configuration values are chosen.

...JRF...

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Karthik_2 — Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:43:45 GMT

---------------------------------------------
1. Do you ever configure Dump Devices under Kernel Configuration in SAM? How often?
No I have not configured dump devices through sam .Dump devices are configured only during the install

2. How would you like to access documentation on kernel paramters (Choose your top 3 methods):
a.A pocket book sized manual
b.command line
c. A "Help" section within SAM

3. HP is considering giving new names to the HP-UX kernel tunable parameters, since the existing names can be confusing. Examples include:
EXISTING NAME -----> NEW NAME
-------------------------------
a. maxuprc ---> max_processes_per_user
b. semmns ---> max_sysV_semaphores
c. hfs_max_ra_blocks -->
max_readahead_blocks_on_hfs

This is a good idea provided we have the alias names as you are aware these names are used in the doc of other software vendors like oracle
The names being descriptive help us to understand what we are trying to change and what wea are doing is *sane*

4. The Kernel Configuration area in SAM is going to change. It will have a CLI and a GUI (or a web interface). Tell us what type of CLI works best for YOU:

A family of commands like the lv and vg family.
But this should not exceed 4 or 5
*set
*get
*log ...help ...tuned kernel sets..preview etc..
*Another nice option would be a command which recommends you to tune the kernel

Cheers
Karthik...

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Michael Lee_4 — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:39:25 GMT

1.only once
2.c. On-Line Web help
3.old names are ok----when we change parameters, we consider it carefully and look it up on manuls, not by its name.
4.I hope it will be a wizard.

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Steven Sim Kok Leong — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:23:53 GMT

Hi,

1. Do you ever configure Dump Devices under Kernel Configuration in SAM? How often?

Extremely rarely, and I used the command line instead ie. lvlnboot -d.

2. How would you like to access documentation on kernel paramters (Choose your top 3 methods):
a. From the command line
b. A "Help" section within SAM
c. Online web help
d. A book/manual
e. Man pages
f. Other (please specify)

f.
- a searchable help section
- a printable manual
- a hierarchical chart
- a highlight on parameters modified
- allow network parameters to be modified as well as detailed usage help for them

Justifications
- A search facility is good for searching for the required kernel parameters.

- A tree hierachy would be useful in interpreting dependencies eg.

- I recalled a few years back that the X-windows based SAM has very detailed on-line help for kernel parameters. However, I had to select help for each kernel parameter and send them to the printer to allow a browsable hardcopy.

ninode
|-> nproc -> maxusers
|-> maxusers
|-> npty

- by providing a highlight on items modified, if maxusers is modified, I can tell from SAM easily the new values for nproc etc from the highlight.

- network parameters (both supported and unsupported) along with detailed usage. The help on tcp_discon_by_addr was not very helpful at all from ndd, by itself.

3. HP is considering giving new names to the HP-UX kernel tunable parameters, since the existing names can be confusing. Examples include:
EXISTING NAME -----> NEW NAME
-------------------------------
a. maxuprc ---> max_processes_per_user
b. semmns ---> max_sysV_semaphores
c. hfs_max_ra_blocks -->
max_readahead_blocks_on_hfs

Of course, the existing names will continue to work, as aliases for the new names. Error messages and documentation will give both names.

Do you think we should give tunables new names like these? Why or why not? Do you have suggestions on how the new names should be chosen?

I would not recommend having new names, it brings confusion, and more things to remember. If my boss refers to the alias, I have to remember to correlate the alias to the actual.

No new names should be chosen. Detailed help would be fine. By having aliases, you are asking ISVs (SAP, Oracle) to modify their manuals accordingly.

4. The Kernel Configuration area in SAM is going to change. It will have a CLI and a GUI (or a web interface). Tell us what type of CLI works best for YOU:

- A SINGLE command OR
- SEVERAL different commands with fewer options

If there is not going to be too many options, I would prefer one SINGLE command with different options. If however there are too many options, I would prefer the commands to be segregated.

Hope this helps. Regards.

Steven Sim Kok Leong
Brainbench MVP for Unix Admin
http://www.brainbench.com

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Alexander M. Ermes — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:51:21 GMT

Good day, ladies and gentlemen.

My answers to your survey :

1 yes / 4-5 times
2 b,e,d
3 the new names would help newbies
to identify paarmeters quicker
for the experienced guys it should be ok
4 Single command

Rgds
Alexander M. Ermes

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Stefan Schulz — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:31:36 GMT

Hello,

1. almost never, but if i have to i use the command line

2. a Help section within SAM, man pages and a book/manual in this order.

3. i like those more "speeking" names as long as the old names still exist/work. I am used to some of the "old" names. But if i have to look for a parameter i don't know jet a more "speeking" name would be really helpful.

4. The GUI should have more funktions. Like marking all options which are not standard, and suggesting parameters for different scenarios. For a CLI i would like several commands with fewer options.

Regards Stefan

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Harri Muttilainen — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:05:58 GMT

1. Maybe when building a machine, but I prefer command line.

2.
b. A "Help" section within SAM
c. Online web help
e. Man pages

3.
Do you think we should give tunables new names like these? Why or why not?

Yes, more descriptive names are always better.

4.
- SEVERAL different commands with fewer options

a.+b.+g. grouped together
others as separate commands
c. Provide data...
d. Set thresholds/Generate...
e. Define groups/values...
f. Include/Exclude device...

Regards
Harri

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Victor BERRIDGE — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:14:54 GMT

1) from time to time (3-5 in a year)
2) a,b,e
3) I got used to them... and find nothing as confusing as names that could be misundertood (the new names) I woulnd change them...
4) both, Im thinking of something like smit=> where to ho to LVM you type smitty lvm, or smitty chfs etc...

All the best

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Paula J Frazer-Campbell — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:27:42 GMT

Hi

---------------------------------------------
1. Do you ever configure Dump Devices under Kernel Configuration in SAM? How often?

No

2. How would you like to access documentation on kernel paramters (Choose your top 3 methods):

Man pages
Help in SAM
Book/manual ? with all implications/settings documented

3. HP is considering giving new names to the HP-UX kernel tunable parameters, since the existing names can be confusing. Examples include:
EXISTING NAME -----> NEW NAME

New names should be used being as descriptive as possible.

4. The Kernel Configuration area in SAM is going to change. It will have a CLI and a GUI (or a web interface). Tell us what type of CLI works best for YOU:

Single Command

HTH

Paula

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

CHRIS_ANORUO — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:35:26 GMT

1. Never used it, only through the command line.
2. Command line, man page, book/manual
3. I like the idea of the more descriptive names.
4. I prefer a CLI with many simple commands rather than few complex commands.

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Manuel Plaza — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:38:07 GMT

Hi,

1. I have configured Dump Devices one or two times.

2. A book/manual, a "Help" section within SAM and man pages.

3. I think that is a good idea give more meaningfuls names to kernel parameters.

4. I prefer several simple commands. It could be a command for each point you have suggested.

Regards,

Manuel

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Alex Glennie — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:50:06 GMT

1. Rarely (would use comand line)

2. e,b,a

3. new names may lead to confusion but if handled carefully/documented clearly should be
OK ?

4. Single command preferred.

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

unixdaddy — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:06:50 GMT

1) I only configure dump devices as part of a cold install and never had to do it on any other occassion.

2) a,b,e - Because these will always be available via telnet, when you might not have access to manuals or a web interface.

3) new names sound good, but like it has already been said documentation by third parties could become confusing as it refers to the old names. However if someone is messing around with the kernel they should be experienced enough to be able to relate alias to the old names.

4)I'm always in favour of CLI, having worked on system where sam is screwed or working on systems which only have a minimal install (no sam) you need to know how to do things manually.

Single Vs Several commands - both have there options, but I would lean towards having several commands with few option. If you've ever tried to read the man page on 'mksf' for example you'll understand what I mean.

I don't know what form this should take, but something like viewing, updating perhaps group kernel parameters around usage i.e. user parameters = maxuser, maxuprocs.

Re: Kernel Wizards (SAM Quest Pt 2)

Shannon Petry — Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:59:20 GMT

1) Install OS only unless a machine changes purposes.

2) B (within SAM)

3) I think the new names would suck eggs! I like the old ones, and like the fact that you have to know what your doing before you start changing things around. Too many windows geeks would start slaughtering kernels with easy to understand names!

4) Single command with Gobs of options!

Regards,
Shannon