topic Re: Mistakes in Operating System - HP-UX

Mistakes

hpuxrox — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:53:33 GMT

How may mistake can a systemadministrator make before he should be released from the job?

Re: Mistakes

James R. Ferguson — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:00:25 GMT

Hi:

One thought (within reason) is that if you aren't making mistakes then you're not doing anything!

That said, like everything, "it depends".

Is the person generally thoughtful and careful executing tasks? Was the mistake an honest one that the admin learned from making? Did the person honestly admit the mistake or try to hide it only to be found out? Has the person made the *same* ( or very similar) mistake again and again?

If the mistake was "honest", openly admitted, and not hidden; contrititon was shown; and knowledge was gained, then probably everyone has profitted.

How many times? It depends...

I'm reminded again of the adage not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Regards!

...JRF...

Re: Mistakes

S.K. Chan — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:10:25 GMT

In my opinion to be consider "released from the job", it has to be a serious offense, not mistakes. For example security violation, company proprietary violation, etc, etc. Mistakes can be corrected and learnt from.
my $0.02

Re: Mistakes

PIYUSH D. PATEL — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:13:36 GMT

Hi,

It depends on the output of the mistake. If it has costed the organisation dearly then definitely some action may be taken. Sometimes even a small command can create havoc. People learn from mistakes only !!!

Piyush

Re: Mistakes

hpuxrox — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:15:03 GMT

Contractors can be released without a serious offense.

Re: Mistakes

A. Clay Stephenson — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:17:52 GMT

I hate touchy-feely stuff but the answer is, of course, it depends.

If he lies about what happened, one time is sufficient. I have shown SA's the door in that case. If the mistake was admitted soon after the event then I'm much more tolerant.

Nobody expect perfection but I do expect honesty and caution. I always tell staff members that if you are doing something new ALWAYS do it on the Sandbox first.

I guess my best answer is that his mistake clobbers my production uptime statistics then I'm mad. If he then lies about it, I'm real mad.

I have very little tolerance for stuff like: "I didn't realize I was on the Production Server", "I didn't know that I was logged in as root", or "I didn't know that that unused LVOL was raw data".

If it's small stuff I don't sweat it at all, but if a stupid, avoidable mistake shuts down production at an entire plant then it's probably time for this guy to update his resume.

I tend to be upfront with this sort of thing during the interview process.

Warm fuzzy thoughts, Clay

Re: Mistakes

RikTytgat — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:46:01 GMT

Hi,

What is the definition of an expert?

An expert is someone that has made all the mistakes.

Release him from the job when he made the same mistake twice!

Bye,
Rik

Re: Mistakes

Jeff Schussele — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:33:15 GMT

Hi Yates,

I agree w/the others i.e. the act or the following actions need to be deemed malicious.
Everybody makes mistakes & I also agree that if some learning doesn't take place then that could be deemed malicious.
But I also think a lot of these "situations" stem from mgmnt i.e. they aren't interviewing properly and/or they're just filling seats. They need to make the right decisions & properly balance quality with quantity & by quantity I mean the $ they're willing to pay.
The old adage is still true - You get what you pay for.

My 2 cents,
Jeff

Re: Mistakes

Martin Johnson — Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:37:03 GMT

Well, I know of one small accounting firm where the secretary was placed in charge of doing the system backups as there was no SA (she became the ad hoc SA without knowing it).

Her training was "this is how a backup is done". Things were going fine until one day they lost a key file. No problem, just restore from backup. Well, the only type of restore they knew how to do was a full restore. So they attempted a full restore. Unfortunately, there had been errors in the backup, there was no data in the backups. The restore deleted the OS with nothing to replace it with.

I was called it to try to salvage the data. I couldn't. Their choices were to find a recovery specialist company or install a new system, knowing all their data would have to be re-entered manually. They chose the new install. The firm had to hire 15 temps to manually do the payrolls that the firm was responsible for, and 5 tmps to manually re-enter all the data. It took them a week.

The secretary was fired before I had the OS installed.

So I think the answer is how much pain did you cause and how pissed off your management team gets.

Marty

Re: Mistakes

Justo Exposito — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:38:03 GMT

Hi Yates,

We are person and a person is no free error by a definition.

Then, the mistakes are less important if you have a good installation, a good DRP, a good training etc...

If not, a little mistake can transform to a great, great problem...Then the responsability of this is the person that don't take the necesary care.

Even there are a mistake and a malicious mistake, and the second case is no admissible.

Then the answer is depend.

Regards,

Justo.

Re: Mistakes

Bill McNAMARA_1 — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:44:43 GMT

I agree with S K..
You need to get them in training, and to follow procedures. It's not easy being a new sysadmin.. even an expert will take time to learn a new environment... and still make mistakes.
Lot's of errors on the other hand, and lots of repeated rm -Rf /* 's would annoy me though!, but in my type of work, technical compentance is seen as an equal skill as personal relations (are they at least trying!)

Later,
Bill

Re: Mistakes

Hartmut Lang — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:47:10 GMT

And you shouldn't fire (oops, want to say "release") someone from his job, if you cannot be shure you will be able to get someone else, who makes less mistakes.

Hartmut

Re: Mistakes

Duncan Edmonstone — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:51:19 GMT

A *good* IT Manager views any mistakes made by his staff as his own mistakes:

-If the mistake was a repteated or malicious one, then the manager considers how he managed to hire the wrong kind of people, and looks to change his hiring criteria.

-If the mistake was just that - an 'honest' mistake, then the manager looks how the process his people work within can be changed to prevent it happening again. Good change & configuration management procedures can make these kind of mistakes very rare.

Just my thoughts...

Duncan

Re: Mistakes

Steven Sim Kok Leong — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:57:50 GMT

Hi Yates,

I would say that the important variables are the degree of the mistakes, the rate of unique mistakes over work done, the rate of repetitive mistakes over work done and also whether sufficient planning and testing was done in advance or in short DUE DILIGENCE.

I would also say that one important factor that must not be left out is culture.

I won't want to pinpoint specific cultures here since they can be pretty sensitive. However, some cultures are more tolerant of mistakes than others. While in other cultures, there is simply no room for mistakes. So it depends on both the country and company culture as well.

Hope this helps. Regards.

Steven Sim Kok Leong

Re: Mistakes

Trond Haugen — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:20:28 GMT

Would you apply for a SA job where only X (a few) mistakes where allowed? And if you did would that make you nervous and more likely to make mistakes?
In Martins story I believe the person who out the secretary in charge (and "trained" her) should be released if anyone should.

Regards,
Trond

Re: Mistakes

H.Merijn Brand (procura — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:30:20 GMT

As also shown by the others: it's not the count that counts :) it's the severity

If one can prove that whatever happened is malice or disturbing the company's production on purpose, I see no reason to give him/her a second chance.

If the error is severe (rm -rf /) it depends on how it happened, how soon he/she admits, and the steps he/she takes to repair the damage. Everyone makes mistakes now and then, but it takes a /human/ to admit, and an expert to not panic, but find a way to get it right again asap.

If severe errors happen multiple times (in a short span), the person is probably not in the right place anyway

Other things are theft. When is theft considered theft? If one takes two empty blank sheets from the printer to make some personal notes? If one prints 12 color-me pictures for your children? If you take two pencils? If you take a laptop? If you use company software? And use that for off-office service to enrich yourself? Come in the office early to drink company coffee instead of doing that at home to save money?

Just my (personal) opinion

BTW I did advice to release a guy long time ago, because I could *prove* he did wrong (multiple times) and he kept denying (multiple times). He was released

Re: Mistakes

Paula J Frazer-Campbell — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:42:29 GMT

Hi

Like a lot of answers on the forum "It depends.

It depends on what level the sysadmin is at.

It depends on how it affects the business.

It depends on how it affects other team members.

It depends on whether they have made the same mistake before.

It depends on the nature of the mistake - was it a simple typo or an untested script/routine run on the live server.

It depends on whether they were correctly trained on what they had been tasked to do.

It depends upon how many consecutive hours they had been working for ??? tired staff will make mistakes. No ands, ifs or buts ??? They Will.

So the definitive answer is: -

IT DEPENDS.

Each and every situation must be looked at and all of the above and more must be taken into account before a decision is made.

Just my 0.02 Euros worth.

Paula

Re: Mistakes

Nick Wickens — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:56:54 GMT

My view is that if you operate an environment where fear of being released if someone screws up exists, then you run the risk that mistakes will be covered up and a covered up mistake can easily turn into unrecoverable mistake.

As has been mentioned above if the SA quickly admits the mistake and has a plan for recovery AND for ensuring it does'nt happen again then there is little to be gained from an explosion of anger from management. Just make a note that the mistake occured for future reference if it happens again and if you want to make a point do it in the salary reviews of that person.

Re: Mistakes

Steven Sim Kok Leong — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:05:39 GMT

Hi,

Another point is the publicity involved. In certain cases, where the mistake was brought to the newspapers and becomes talking point, the company just have to sack the person because of the scrutiny.

The mistake might not be that grave, but the complaints by the users on the mistake would be.

The company may be tolerant of the mistake, but the customers aren't. If that's the case, the company sometimes has no choice. *shrug*

Another 2 cents. Regards.

Steven Sim Kok Leong

Re: Mistakes

Pete Randall — Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:43:52 GMT

Brother Yates,

To me it all depends on the honesty factor. If the "offender" has the right attitude about h[ie][sr] responsibilities, owns up to h[ie][sr] transgressions, and learns from them, I'm a lot more tolerant. On the other hand, the second hint of deceptiveness is going to send me across the hall to talk to Human Resources about getting rid of h[ie][mr].

Good to hear from you, it's been a while.

Pete