topic Re: Intel + OpenVms in Operating System - OpenVMS

Intel + OpenVms

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:07:34 GMT

OpenVms will soon be available on Intel.

Does this means that OpenVms can also be used on other 64 bit mini's or PC's ?

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:14:10 GMT

It means that it will run on HP Integrity servers with Intel's 64-bit Itanium CPU. It does not mean that it runs natively on Intel's 32-bit CPUs.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Mobeen_1 — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:35:55 GMT

Van,
Uwe is right. OpenVMS will run on the itanium series but this cannot be used on any PC with intel 32 bit CPU.

rgds
Mobeen

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Mobeen_1 — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:37:16 GMT

To add to my earlier comments, if you would like to see a detailed roadmap i can make that available to you :-)

rgds
Mobeen

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:40:40 GMT

Of course with 64 bit. But does it has to be Intel or can AMD also run VMS. And if PC's with Itanium are made, will it be able to run OpenVms ?

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Mobeen_1 — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:47:44 GMT

Van,
May be i mis-interpreted your question :-)

Now to the answer, as of today the plan is that OpenVMS will be made available to be run on itanium based CPU be it desktop or server.

Unfortunately so far there has not been any direction from AMD (as far as i know) on coming out with itanium based CPU.

It means that OpenVMS will be only available to be run on PC/Desktops and Servers that are based on intels itanium architecture

rgds
Mobeen

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Ian Miller. — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:23:13 GMT

VMS does run on certain models of hp integrity servers. See
http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/openvms/

hp have said they will only test VMS on their itanium based systems but won't do anything deliberate to prevent it working on somebody elses itanium based systems. The hp rx1600 is the cheapest new hardware to run VMS that I've seen for years. USA list price around $3000.

The AMD 64 bit cpu is a IA32 architecture ship with some addons - not a 64 bit architecture. Itanium is a completely different beast.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:59:01 GMT

Well, even if AMD had a full 64-bit architecture that won't help due to different instruction sets. An Alpha programm does not run natively[*] on IA64 and vice versa although both are 64-bit CPUs.

[*] I know that there will be a translator/interpreter for Alpha code on IA64.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:01:48 GMT

Uwe,

If the instruction set is not compatible, then how is Windows going to run on both of them ?

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:20:37 GMT

Wim,
it won't if the instruction sets do not match.

Did you know that Windows NT used to run on Alpha, IA32, MIPS and POWER? Hey, a first prototype was created on the i960 CPU if I recall correctly.

On some software distributions you can still see different subdirectories for 'x86', ALPHA, MIPS, PPC.

I am not dealing much with Windows, but I bet that Microsoft still creates different CD-ROM sets for different architectures.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Antoniov. — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:26:38 GMT

Hi Wim,
Italinium IA64 is a PCU based a bit on Alpha technologies; it's not compatible with x86 architecture; processor Itanium required a separate windows software to wrok fine; processor can run old windows software in an emulation box (32 bit) like windows 95 run 16 bit application on win3.1; this emulation box can't work with 64bit alpha because it's very difficult and not stable emulate at the same level (sorry for my english).
I explained in not technical mode, so you it's not accurate!

@Antoniov

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:33:53 GMT

Antoniov,

I worked in Italy (Milano, Terni and Brindisi) and have seen English that is a lot worse. Or no English at all.

Still not a clear answer. As I understand it, OpenVms would run on Itanium, whatever the box it is in. AMD would require a conversion box, unless they are compatible.

So, this would make OpenVms as almost as open as Linux (or Sun Unix ?) ?

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:34:01 GMT

Huh? I thought that Itanium is a bit like a VLIW (very long instruction word) machine, not a RISC architecture.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:48:17 GMT

Wim,
the (unofficial) answer from members of OpenVMS engineering on the internet was that 'they would not do anything that prevented OpenVMS from running on a non-HP Itanium box' (not exactly their words, but I beleive it reflects the meaning). However, that does not mean much, right? Who will support the customer when there is a problem? -> Nobody! HP doesn't know the other box and the other vendor cannot support OpenVMS.

How do you define 'open'? It is my understanding that companies who offer competing SPARC boxes have licensed Solaris from SUN and provide support on their own.

Oh, and the 'conversion box' is a process that is running _within_ the operating system! It enables simple user-mode programms to be emulated. Something based on AMD would have to emulate the complete hardware architecture of an Itanium-based computer.

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Martin P.J. Zinser — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:32:44 GMT

Hello Wim,

the customer available versions of OpenVMS actually will run on Itanium II (and up?) CPUs.
You will not be able to run OpenVMS on an Itanium I box (nor can I imagine any reason to do so, the non-performance of the original Itanium is legendary). Unofficially OpenVMS engeneering has stated that they will not intentionally do anything to prevent you from running on non-hp Itanium HW (like e.g. from Dell). Now here is a catch, to the best of my knowledge hp uses their own chipset on these systems, so even if they do not try to break other books by design, it just might happen by chance.

Other things to keep in mind:
- Not even all hp boxes will be qualified for OpenVMS. Read the specs carefully.
- Getting a valid OpenVMS license or even worse a support contract for a non-hp Itanium system could be tricky.

General discussion:

Itanium has >>nothing<< todo with x86 besides of the fact that both are produced by Intel. The binaries are >>incompatible<<.

AMD64 OTOH is a 64bit extension of the original x86 architecture. It is compatible with old IA32 binaries.

There is no way to run a copy of OpenVMS for Itanium on an AMD64 box. If hp would decide to support AMD64 on OpenVMS it would be a completely new port. Not indications exist that this is currently planned.

Greetings, Martin

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Antoniov. — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:50:53 GMT

Martin,
you told my idea better than me and with more accurate techinal information.
About open (vms) I remember some year ago an italian company (Olivetti) agree with Dec to sell alpha hardware; both companies now doesn't exist but vms started as open system.

@Antoniov

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Uwe Zessin — Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:26:02 GMT

Antoniov,
Olivetti agreed to port Unix system V (=5) to Alpha while DEC ported OSF/1 and that was not 'some years ago', but when Alpha was introduced. There has been a long history with Olivetti & DEC - O. was a long-time supplier of PCs for DEC (DECstation 325 or so?).

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Stanley F Quayle — Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:01:21 GMT

Itanium VMS will be allowed in the Hobbyist program, so there will soon be attempts to run on non-HP boxes. You can download version V8.1 for Itanium today for $75.

There were some things I heard in a recent NDA session that suggest that certain HP-only items have crept in at device discovery during boot for V8.2.

By the way, it's possible to run OpenVMS on the 32-bit Intel (or AMD) chips of today -- as an emulation of a VAX under Windows.

http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html

[This is a Shameless Plug (tm) from a CHARON-VAX reseller.]

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Martin P.J. Zinser — Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:54:25 GMT

Hello Stanley,

that is why I very carefully phrased that you can not run "OpenVMS for Itanium on an AMD64 box" ;-) or do you already have an Itanium emulator since it is a dying dinosaur ;->

Greetings, Martin

Re: Intel + OpenVms

Stanley F Quayle — Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:03:38 GMT

There's no plans to make an Itanium emulation product. Now, if there were thousands and thousands of systems needing to be migrated, that would be a different story.