topic Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A? in Operating System - OpenVMS

Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Duane Sadowski — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 00:18:22 GMT

Hi. I'm writing with a question about upgrading the VMS on an AlphaServer 2100A 4/275 with 128 MB of memory running VMS 6.2-1H3, admittedly an old release. (The system is very stable.)

I'm curious if people could share any rules of thumb or caveats regarding upgrading the VMS on such a system from 6.2-1H3 to 7.3-2 or 8.2. (For example, is the system likely to run a lot slower after such a large leap? Is a moderately busy system likely to need more memory?)

(For what it's worth, I know from reading the VMS FAQ that one can't upgrade from 6.2-1H3 to 7.3-2 in a single upgrade but instead needs to do at least two separate upgrades.)

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

David B Sneddon — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:26:02 GMT

Duane,

The best thing to do is read the Upgrade and Installation
manual for each release. That will tell you exactly
what needs to be done and provides checklists for
pre- and post- upgrade stages.
Each release is supposed to include performance
improvements and in the upgrades I have done this
has been the case. As far as *needing* more memory,
I would suggest getting additional memory anyway
since you will see additional performance benefits.
I have some rules and caveats but they have been
acquired over many years of upgrades and suit
the way I do things and probably not for general
consumption.

Regards
Dave

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Antoniov. — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:42:44 GMT

Duane,
I believe nobody can answer you :-(
My experience is stuff of entry level systems (old Alphaserver 300/400/800/1200); some systems keep V6.2 some other upgraded to V7.3-2.
Advantages:
- New very usefull commands
- You can install new important software (e.g. mySql, Apache, PHP, kerberos, etc.)
Disadvantages:
- It's better add new ram
- It's better increase hard disk size (mainly for new applications)
- Need reconfigure system
- Some licenses must be changed

I updated when I needed install new software.
My idea is - if your system is stable and you don't need of new software, do nothing. Perhaps you have to change SRM too.

You can't upgrade from V6.2 to V7.3-2 in single step. I tryed it, doesn't work.

Antonio Vigliotti

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Uwe Zessin — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:52:29 GMT

If the system is running stable and the applications are frozen - just keep it running.

There is too much risk that the upgrade will blow just _something_.

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Kris Clippeleyr — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:53:04 GMT

Duane,

Upgrading to let's say 7.3-2 is no problem on an Alpha 2100A. First upgrade to 7.1, then to 7.2 and then to 7.3-2. As for the memory, it depends on what you're doing with the machine. I'm running 7.3-2 on an AlphaServer 400 4/166 with 96MB. It's kinda slow. For any decent work I'd recommend at least 256MB. But buying additional memory for a 2100 can be costly. Why not consider upgrading the hardware to a DS15 or DS25 (less maintenance costs, components may be cheaper, and they're faster).
FWIW,
Kris (aka Qkcl)

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Karl Rohwedder — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:56:24 GMT

From 6.2-1 you can directly upgrade to 7.3 and from there to 7.3-2 (according to the FAQ).

Check, that your backup is o.k. 128 MB may become a bottleneck...

mfg Kalle

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Robert Gezelter — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 04:17:50 GMT

Duane,

On the question of memory, the answer is that it depends dramatically on the nature of your application and how well it is tuned.

I have seen large applications on very limited machines and single user apps that required huge amounts of memory, there is no reliable rule of thumb.

The actual upgrade path is, as has been mentioned, covered in the FAQ.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Ian Miller. — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 04:56:26 GMT

apart from the sensible things already said, I've found that VMS V7.3-2 is actually faster (on low end boxes such as AS1000 and Digital PWS) than V6.2 and V7.1

More memory is always a good idea.

Why are you upgrading?

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Duane Sadowski — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:29:44 GMT

David -

Thank you for the comments regarding the Upgrade and Installation manual, the performance improvements, and the benefits of adding memory.
----------------------------------------------

Antonio -

Thank you for listing the advantages and disadvantages of upgrading. Yes, the reason that we seek to upgrade is to be able to install new software such as the Apache that you mentioned. We want to be able to create CGI applications and maybe SOAP applications as well.

You wrote about licenses that need to be changed. I'm curious if you could please comment more about that.

You also mentioned SRM. I know little about SRM and PALcode. I'm curious whether there's usually backward compatibility when one upgrades the SRM as part of an operating system upgrade. I'm curious - if something goes wrong during the upgrade and we have to go back to the old VMS, whether the updated SRM will work OK with the old VMS.
----------------------------------------------

Uwe -

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I'm fond of the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." You mentioned the risk that something might go wrong, and that got my attention. :-) I'm curious about the types of things can go wrong. I haven't done many VMS upgrades, and I haven't done any since the mid-1990s.
----------------------------------------------

Kris -

Thanks for your comments. I will explore the alternative of the hardware upgrade.
----------------------------------------------

Karl -

Thanks for the suggestions about the upgrade path, the memory, and the importance of the backup.
----------------------------------------------

Bob -

Thanks for the comments, including the one on the significance of the particular application and how well it's tuned.
----------------------------------------------

Ian -

Thanks for your comments. One reason for the upgrade is so we can use Apache and other Web technologies.

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

David B Sneddon — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:40:36 GMT

With regard to SRM and PALcode... there should be
a firware CD with your CD kit. Upgrading to the
latest should not cause any problems if you have
to go back to an earlier VMS. Depending on how old
your existing firmware is, VMS may not boot. If this
happens, you will see a message advising that this
is the case and telling you to upgrade the firmware.
Rule-of-thumb: upgrade firmware _then_ upgrade OS.

Regards
Dave

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Duane Sadowski — Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:55:38 GMT

Dave:

Thanks for the information on the firmware software. It's good to know that one gets an explicit message if the firmware is too old.

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Antoniov. — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 02:43:42 GMT

Duane,
I can tell you about my experience.

I update SRM everytime I could even on system running V6.2: no problem.

I changed when I installed Apache. I called my HP vendor and he told me I have to buy new vms license. After I installed it I discovered old license works fine but system display error message on console but now I don't remember exact text.
Other licenses work fine. However, if you use Advanced Server, you must update license; also you wish upgrade decnet from IV to V.

About memory, Apache may require a lot, so I hint you increase RAM size.

Antonio Vigliotti

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Jan van den Ende — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:03:32 GMT

Duane,

Antonio "hints" that you increase RAM.
Well, take that as an understatement!!
Apache requires quite some memory, but if you are to run CGI scripts, THEN, you REALLY need A LOT! Start by thinking 1G, and more if you expect several simultanious users for it.

And in the light of the price of AS2100 memory, compared to more moderm mem for DS systems, my view is that Kris really gave wise advise.
As an extra, that also gives you much faster CPU(s), which may also turn out to be very welcome.

hth,

Proost.

Have one on me.

Jan

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Uwe Zessin — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:08:36 GMT

About updating SRM whenever a new version is available...

Last year I've updated a customer system (AlphaServer 1000A) from OpenVMS Alpha V7.1 to V7.3-2. SRM had already been update to the current version before I got to the system. We had to do a two-stage update and as part of it I did a simple reboot...

The system failed with a nice error:

%SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000043C

halted CPU 0

halt code = 7
machine check while in PAL mode
PC = cf00
>>>

A power cycle was necessary to get a clean boot.

The problem went away after the upgrade to V7.3-2 was finished. Phew ...

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Doug Phillips — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:36:37 GMT

Duane,

The firmware for the AS2100A 4/xxx isn't with the VMS7.3-2 distro. You need the Alpha Firmware CD V5.4 that was with VMS7.1 or VMS7.2 or you can download it from:
< ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/archive/as2100a.html >

Doug

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Duane Sadowski — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:59:15 GMT

Antonio -

Thanks for addressing the SRM, license, and memory questions.

I'm curious about the nature of that new VMS license. (To support more users? To support a more powerful variety of NAS?)

I'm also curious about the reason for the DECnet IV-to-V upgrade. (I know that we're using IV. I think I should pick up a friendly manual to read about the differences between IV and V.)
------------------------------------------
Jan -

1 GB? WOW. Thanks for letting me know that adding another 128 MB will likely be insufficient. Yesterday I discussed with my boss and with one of our software vendors the memory upgrade and DS system issues of which you, Kris, and the others have informed me.
------------------------------------------
Uwe -

Thanks for letting me know about that specific problem that you encountered during your two-stage update after the SRM had been updated and how you managed to work around it.
--------------------------------------------
Doug -

Thanks for letting me know in which box I will find the firmware CD, and thanks for letting me know that I have the alternative of downloading it from the FTP site.
---------------------------------------------

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Ian Miller. — Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:12:14 GMT

to get support for DECnet IV you need a special option on yr support contract.

for the cost of the memory to add to a 2100 I expect you could get a more recent AlphaServer - consider refurb equipment - I've found it good value.

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Antoniov. — Mon, 07 Feb 2005 02:47:09 GMT

Hi Duane,
one my customer has two license types, openvms and openvms-adl (from old vax); HP vendor told me which is not possible merging theese two licenses in V7.3-2 but when I loaded them on system they work displaying LISTIGNORE warning message.
On my system I have dspp license and they work greatly.
About decnet, on entry level system, you need NAS license to use decnet IV and DVNETEND/DVNETEXT for decnet V. I'm not sure it's the same on higher systems like 2100; here somebody can notice better than me.

Cheers
Antonio Vigliotti

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Uwe Zessin — Mon, 07 Feb 2005 04:15:16 GMT

Sorry, but that's not correct.

NAS (Network Application Support) is a license bundle. To see what's included, do something like:

$$ search SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL_LMFGROUPS.COM -250
$ vmi$lmf_grp_1 :== NET-APP-SUP-250/ACAS-RT/CDA-RT/DCPS-PLUS/DECPS-DC/DMQ-RTO/DQ
S/DVNETEND/DW-MOTIF/DW-MOTIF-UI-CESKY/DW-MOTIF-UI-DEUTSCH/
$ vmi$lmf_grp_2 :== NET-APP-SUP-250/DW-MOTIF-UI-ESPANOL/DW-MOTIF-UI-FRANCAIS/DW-
MOTIF-UI-ITALIANO/DW-MOTIF-UI-MAGYAR/DW-MOTIF-UI-POLSKI/
$ vmi$lmf_grp_3 :== NET-APP-SUP-250/DW-MOTIF-UI-RUSSKIJ/DW-MOTIF-UI-SLOVENSKY/DW
-MOTIF-UI-SVENSKA/FORMS-RT/OBB-RT/P25A/P25B/
$ vmi$lmf_grp_4 :== NET-APP-SUP-250/P25C/RDB-RUNTIME/RDB-SERVER/RSM-CLIENT/RTR-C
L/UCX/UCX-IP-APPL/UCX-IP-RT/VMSCLUSTER/
$$

You see, the NET-APP-SUP-250 PAK includes a "DVNETEND" license.

The NAS packaging has been replaced with the Enterprise Integration Package" (EIP) a long time ago. Since then, you get single PAKs for, e.g. DW-MOTIF, DVNETEND, UCX and so on.

DECnet IV runs fine with a separate DVNETEND PAK.

Re: Upgrading VMS on AlphaServer 2100A?

Antoniov. — Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:45:24 GMT

Well Uwe,
as I posted, I wasn't sure what is licence policy on entrerprise systems. For entry level, HP release NAS 200 which doesn't include DVNETEND. I guess because NAS 200 is cheaper than NAS 250.

Antonio Vigliotti