topic Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium in Operating System - OpenVMS

DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Michelle_68 — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:45:08 GMT

We are at the beginning stages of designing a new system to replace our "old" ones. We have two systems which we have networked together with multiple applications running on each. One system is a DEC 3000 running OpenVms Ver6.1. The other is a VAX 4000-300 running VMS ver 5.4-1. We want to move everything onto one machine. We are now trying to decide whether to purchase a DS25 Alpha or one of the new Itanium systems. Does anyone have any opinions on the subject? Do you think that it would be "impossible" to migrate from these older versions of VMS to the Itanium machine or should we just stick with the DS25 Alpha?
Any input is appreciated. Thank you!

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

atul sardana — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:09:33 GMT

dear michelle,

Everything is possible.
if you want to purcahse itanium server then it has require ovms ver 8.2 or 8.3 after installation in new server u have to need some modification as per your requiremnt or as per your application needs.

Thanks,

Atul sardana

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Volker Halle — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:11:41 GMT

Michelle,

as you are trying to migrate applications from both an old VAX and an old Alpha, the major stepping stone would be, whether you can rebuild your applications from source code. This would be required, if you move your VAX application to Alpha and would be required for both VAX and Alpha applications, if you move to Itanium.

If you can't recompile your apps, there are also the binary translators and there are emulators around for emulating the underlying hardware (CHARON-VAX and CHARON-AXP).

If you can easily recompile/relink your apps, consider the move to Itanium.

Volker.

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Robert Gezelter — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:19:11 GMT

Michelle,

The important question is what langauages, applications, and tools.

Working from current sources, the transition to Integrity is straightforward. The amount of work depends on the type and nature of your sources. If all of your sources are non-privileged applications programs, it is straightforward, but it can be an extended process (e.g., if your programs are written with VAX C and you have to transition them to the more current C compilers).

My original thoughts about the transition when it was announced (2001) are located at http://www.rlgsc.com/alphaitanium.html [that page also contains links to several other presentations I have given on Alpha/VAX -> Inegrity porting issues].

The DS25 systems, would at least give you a direct path for the Alpha. The VAX is probably runnning this far older.

I would not recommend making a decision until a full review of the workload and programs has been done. Otherwise, you are making a decision without information. Going forward, Integrity is cheaper than Alpha, in terms of hardware and licensing.

Also, if you are not comfortable with the technologies, consider retaining someone who is who can lend an experienced eye to the issues that need to be examined [disclosure: our firm does assist clients in this type of situation].

If I can clarify this answer, please let me know.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Hoff — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:54:52 GMT

Since your organization sits on software and hardware nearly forever, I'd look seriously at moving as far forward as you can.

Akin to what Bob G. has posted, here are some ruminations on the porting of existing OpenVMS applications -- an intro to looking at your motivations, at alternatives, at the TCO, and various other such factors: http://64.223.189.234/node/98

Stephen Hoffman
HoffmanLabs

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Michelle_68 — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:43:10 GMT

Many of our applications are written in DEC Fortran and we also have an Oracle RDB database which we have had success in the past porting over to a DS25 system running OpenVMS 8.2. So, the safest path would be to buy the DS25 system but because of system support and hardware replacements not being available in the future, we were contemplating using the Iridium systems. Is the Iridium system compatable enough to make the trasition as we did to the DS25 system in the past or are we opening up ourselves to a world of new problems and issues? Our schedule is also limited so we do not have extra time to experiment. This has to be taken into consideration also.

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Ian Miller. — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:32:39 GMT

If you have managed to port to OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 then going on to OpenVMS Itanium V8.3 is not a big step.

A Itanium system (rx2620 or rx2260) will be less to buy and less to maintain.

Re: DS25 Alpha vs Itanium

Hoff — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:20:56 GMT

Fortran and Rdb and related will come straight across to either OpenVMS Alpha or OpenVMS I64, and moving forward will typically involve about the same amount of effort for either platform.

[I use "typically" in the above text only because I've not seen the source code.]

An Integrity rx2620 or rx2660 series and software will likely be rather cheaper than an AlphaServer DS25 server, as well.

Most Fortran, Ada, COBOL and Rdb code comes straight across, and I've hauled over megabytes of source with little more than some minor work in the build procedures. Two weeks to haul over a couple of megabytes of Bliss and C and precompiler embedded Rdb, and most of that time was spent running regressions and extending build the environment for parallel multi-architecture builds. And fixing latent bugs the newer compilers found.

Bliss and C and even Macro32 VAX assembler generally also come across nicely, except where there are either latent code bugs or kernel references. A few minor changes in these areas are required, and changes related to kernel changes can be required.

The changes are required when moving off of VAX, regardless of the target platform.

I'd certainly start with the porting manuals, which point to the various porting wrinkles that can exist within source code. These wrinkles are rare, but they do exist.

If you'd like to try this new software stuff out yourself before making a decision, ask for a (free) username account over on the HP Test Drive environment. http://www.testdrive.hp.com/

Stephen Hoffman
HoffmanLabs