topic Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS? in Operating System - OpenVMS

Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Dolezel Vaclav — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 07:41:55 GMT

Hello,

On Alpha OpenVMS 7.3-2 this syntax is working:

HPA1:SYSTEM> run smhpa1::SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]mail.exe

You have 5 new messages.

MAIL>

On Itanium OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 is not working:

CZU1:SYSTEM> run smczu1::SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]mail.exe
%DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SMCZU1::SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]MAIL.EXE
-CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file SMCZU1::SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]MAIL.EXE;1
-SYSTEM-E-INVFILFOROP, invalid file specification for operation

Why? Thanks for help.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Jan van den Ende — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:03:34 GMT

Vaclav,

firstly:

WELCOME to the VMS forum!

Your command:

>>>
run smhpa1::SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]mail.exe
<<<

is a request to run an image, which is present at the remote (DECnet) node SMCZU1

Obviously, SMCZU1 is an Alpha system, like the (7.3-2) node on which you are executing the command successfully.

Now, if you try yhis from an Itanium system, effectively you are trying to run an Alpha image on your Itanium system.
And while the command structure (and most other things) are very similar, the ==instruction set== (the hardware level instructions directly executable) is VERY different. And therefor, an Vax image does NOT run on Alpha nor Itanium, (in ANY combination of machine code and hardware).
That you can run the (well, almost) same program on the different hardwares, is because the different compilers generate VERY different executables!.

But, back to your underlying question:
If you want to run MAIL, why do you use the executable that is located at another node?
Why not simple use the local copy of MAIL.EXE? And even more, why not simple use the DCL MAIL command?
I -can- think of reasons, but in those cases I would expect you not to need to ask this question....

So, just do
$ MAIL
or, if you somehow redefined or disabled that and REALLY want ro RUN the .EXE directly,

$ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:MAIL

hth

Proost.

Have one on me.

jpe

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Karl Rohwedder — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:11:00 GMT

Jan,

from the DCL prompt I would conclude he is trying to run the image from the local node via DECnet. And when trying to run an image from another architecture, the error message should be IMGACT-F-NOTNATIVE.

Perhaps SMCZU1 is a logical name?

regards Kalle

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:17:13 GMT

Don't have Itanium over here but the ";1" in the error message could indicate that it found the exe but could not activate it.

Wim

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Jan van den Ende — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:18:51 GMT

Kalle,

thank you, I missed that!

So, if it DOES work from Alpha, but not from IA64, the Invalid file spec seems to indicate that either DECnet is not running, or SMCZU1 is not (or not correctly) defined on the IA64; or the network is not functioning fully as expected....

But my previous answer still retains its value.

Proost.

Have one on me.

jpe

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Dolezel Vaclav — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:01:26 GMT

Hi all,

DECnet on SMCZU1 is working well. The reason why i'm asking is, that i have a script which is correctly running on ALPHA and on IA64 is making this error. I'm starting image from specific place through sysman on several nodes. Not all nodes defined in sysman environment are in cluster.So the question is, why it's working on ALPHA and not on IA64. And of course IA64 image i'm trying to start on IA64 platform and ALPHA image on ALPHA platform. I just take mail.exe like example.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Robert Gezelter — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:10:22 GMT

Dolezel,

Running images over DECnet works, within certain limitations. While I am careful, I would be unsurprised if those limitations included issues such as layered products, similar versions (for privileged code), and others.

While I see that MAIL is just an example, my first question is: "Why run the image over DECnet?"

As to Itanium and Alpha, for the same versions, the behavior should be essentially identical. As I understand it (not having direct access to the master packs [smile]), both binaries are built from the same sources, with the exception of architecture dependent modules.

That said, more information about the environment would be helpful.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:11:44 GMT

And the ;1 is in the message ?

The sysman stuff is not related because you have the problem when you do run at the prompt and can simulate it ?

Wim

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:34:30 GMT

If you copy the mail.exe file to the node on which you do the run and then run that image, does it work ?

Wim

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Jan van den Ende — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:34:49 GMT

Vaclav,

Ah, MAIL is just an example.

Well, try my first suggestion: do the RUN without DECnet specifiaction. If necessary, (outside cluster) COPY the image over to the specified location. And in case of Alpha - Itanium, _DO_ compile the source on each platform!.

--- if MAIL was just an example, was SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE] also "just an example"? Is the specified directory also valid over DECnet?
Try a
$ DIR SMCZU1::
Do you see the intended image, or also an error message?

Proost.

Have one on me.

jpe

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Willem Grooters — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:37:57 GMT

'smczu1::' suggests you run the image over DECNet, and as other suggested already, it's not needed. Or even invalidated for certain situations.
What I can think of: is the node you specify (smhpa1 on Alpha, smczu1 on Itanium) the local machine? If not, it may hold such a clue.

Why messing around with normally available functionality like MAIL? Just $ MAIL will do the same witthout the problem.

What does SYS$COMMON refer to in yout Itanium configuration? What about SYS$LOGIN and SYS$DISK? Is there a file MAIL.MAI The error:

SYSTEM-E-INVFILFOROP, invalid file specification for operation

tells something is not right here. IIRC, VMSMAIL will look for a file MAIL.MAI in your login directory (SYS$LOGIN:):

MAIL.MAI;1 File ID: (31823,37,0)
Size: 36/36 Owner: [,]
Created: 29-JUN-2007 13:56:45.70
Revised: 17-OCT-2007 08:14:38.53 (7)
Expires:
Backup: 21-AUG-2008 19:20:11.96
Effective:
Recording:
File organization: Indexed, Prolog: 3, Using 2 keys
In 3 areas
Shelved state: Online
Caching attribute: Writethrough
File attributes: Allocation: 36, Extend: 15, Maximum bucket size: 5, Global buffer count: 0, Version limit: 10
Contiguous best try
Record format: Variable length, maximum 2048 bytes, longest 0 bytes
Record attributes: None
RMS attributes: None
Journaling enabled: None
File protection: System:RW, Owner:RW, Group:, World:
Access Cntrl List: None
Client attributes: None

Total of 1 file, 36/36 blocks.

(Allocation and real size will vary, as will user UIC)

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

x2084 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:44:41 GMT

Yes, there is a difference. On Alpha it is allowed to activate an image which is on a remote node - via DECnet, on I64 this is not supported.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Dolezel Vaclav — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:00:22 GMT

To Hartmut Becker:

Is it official information which i can find somewhere in OpenVMS documentation?

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

x2084 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:46:22 GMT

Sorry, nothing "official".

For 8.3-1H1, this was supposed to be included in the DCL dictionary, but it was too late to get it in. As an alternative it was planned to have a note in the documentation-related release notes, but I can't find it, so I suspect it didn't make it.

New in 8.3-1H1 is the nice error message INVFILFOROP, the previous error messages on I64 were NOTFILEDEV and very often ACCVIO.

This "feature" was never supported on I64.
And, before you try it: running an I64 image from a tape is also not supported.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Willem Grooters — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:28:15 GMT

Hartmuth,

I'm not sure how many will use the possibility, it's quite neat to have an executable reside on one machine and run it from the other, even outside a cluster.
But is has been used before - given the original question.
What is the background of the removal?

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

John Gillings — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:19:33 GMT

>it's quite neat to have an executable
>reside on one machine and run it from the
>other, even outside a cluster.

It might be "neat" but it's a hideously inefficient way to activate an image, and there are numerous things that just plain don't work. For example, RUN/DEBUG has never, and most likely will never work for a remote image on any platform.

Consider also that read only code pages in a local image are directly mapped from the disk, so they can be paged in, rather than read. That's non-trivial for a remote image. Do you really want to do paging I/O across a network?

Support for activation of an images over DECnet has only ever been marginal, at best. It's a cute trick, but in a real production environment it's just plain silly. From a performance perspective you would be MUCH better off making a local copy of the image and executing it locally. Even if it's just a temporary copy. Incur the network overheads ONCE, rather than for every pagefault.

As images get larger and more complex, and DECnet fades into history, the engineering effort required to make network activation work could be much better spent improving more critical parts of OpenVMS.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Dolezel Vaclav — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 05:33:11 GMT

Thank you all for your time.

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

x2084 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:05:46 GMT

John said it all.

Add to it, that I64 aka Elf (object and) image files are not simple sequential files. There is an entry into the internal structure, the Elf header, which must be at the beginning of the file. Any other Elf structure or image data is pointed to and can be anywhere within the file.

Given the fact that this is only the second report on this "feature" I guess it is not very important for most customers.

Also, remote image activation is in a gray area. It "works" but - as far asI know - it was never officially listed as supported. And for those cases where it does/can not work it very likely will not be "fixed".

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

Wim Van den Wyngaert — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:09:49 GMT

Is a run of an exe on a NFS drive still supported ?

Wim

Re: Where is the difference between ALPHA and IA64 version of OpenVMS?

x2084 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:11:53 GMT

That looks more like a question for the vendor of the NFS client software.

On the client side an NFS served directory looks like a local disk. On VMS it is just an ODS2 or ODS5 disk. There is nothing special for the image activator, here. If something doesn't work, then either the NFS client lacks an Files11 feature or the NFS server can't handle a client request (or whatever the right term in that environment is).