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MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

Zodapod
Occasional Visitor

MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

I'm not familiar with HP's Wifi products, but I was called in to look at a HP MSM760 controller with 49 deployed AP-430's  which:

1] Is not allowing users to roam seamlessly

2] Has Various AP's which seem to disappear randomly causing loss of wifi connectivity in areas - even when you are standing directly under them....

For the most part the noise floor is -55 or worse. on 2.4Ghz and -65 or worse on 5.Ghz.

The deployment is a  'T' shaped building with a Large open central atrium that spans all floors where the T intersects.  About 170,000 sqr feet on 4 floors.  There are up to 4 AP's per 'leg' of a T !

I've done mesh in larger buildings (250K and 330K sqr ft) using a different Manufacturer with 1/2 or less # of AP's

Short of ripping it out and replacing it with what I know works:

- My first though is that they need to get rid of up to 2/3rds of the AP's and get the noise floor under control.... Of course we'd need to test the range but those hallways are only 150 to 200' in length - does that really require 4APs ?!

- I don't understand why various AP's seem turn off their Wifi at random - is that becuase they are lowering their Tx power automatically to not interfere with each other and getting to ~0dB ?

-  And  **Shouldn't the controller have a "Mobility Licence" installed to allow users to roam across AP's** ?  Becuase this one doesn't and there is a yellow Bar at the top of the licencing screen that says so....  And if it is required then would the original installer not have seen that ?

Thanks for any help offered.

 

8 REPLIES
Ascendor
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?


@Zodapod wrote:

- My first though is that they need to get rid of up to 2/3rds of the AP's and get the noise floor under control.... Of course we'd need to test the range but those hallways are only 150 to 200' in length - does that really require 4APs ?!

I guess that's depending on too many factors to answer. (Kinds of walls, how much obstables in the way, height of ceilings, type of mounting, which bands your using etc. etc. etc.) I'd say you should start experimenting with it. From my limited POV it doesn't sound THAT much to have an AP every 50 yards?

- I don't understand why various AP's seem turn off their Wifi at random - is that becuase they are lowering their Tx power automatically to not interfere with each other and getting to ~0dB ?

Depends on how the system is setup. Is RRM enabled? Are the APs configured autonomously and auto-powering? I would suggest digging in the event logs and system logs to find out what's really happening. To be honest I cannot imagine them really SWITCHING OFF the radio. Your theory about lowering TX power might be fitting.

-  And  **Shouldn't the controller have a "Mobility Licence" installed to allow users to roam across AP's** ?  Becuase this one doesn't and there is a yellow Bar at the top of the licencing screen that says so....  And if it is required then would the original installer not have seen that ?

As far as I understand, a mobility license is only needed if you need L3 mobility. Normal roaming withing the same VLAN should work right away without a premium license. What kind of malfunctioning do you see while roaming?


 

Zodapod
Occasional Visitor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?


@Ascendor wrote:

@Zodapod wrote:

- My first though is that they need to get rid of up to 2/3rds of the AP's and get the noise floor under control.... Of course we'd need to test the range but those hallways are only 150 to 200' in length - does that really require 4APs ?!

I guess that's depending on too many factors to answer. (Kinds of walls, how much obstables in the way, height of ceilings, type of mounting, which bands your using etc. etc. etc.) I'd say you should start experimenting with it. From my limited POV it doesn't sound THAT much to have an AP every 50 yards?

- I don't understand why various AP's seem turn off their Wifi at random - is that becuase they are lowering their Tx power automatically to not interfere with each other and getting to ~0dB ?

Depends on how the system is setup. Is RRM enabled? Are the APs configured autonomously and auto-powering? I would suggest digging in the event logs and system logs to find out what's really happening. To be honest I cannot imagine them really SWITCHING OFF the radio. Your theory about lowering TX power might be fitting.

-  And  **Shouldn't the controller have a "Mobility Licence" installed to allow users to roam across AP's** ?  Becuase this one doesn't and there is a yellow Bar at the top of the licencing screen that says so....  And if it is required then would the original installer not have seen that ?

As far as I understand, a mobility license is only needed if you need L3 mobility. Normal roaming withing the same VLAN should work right away without a premium license. What kind of malfunctioning do you see while roaming?


 


VLANs look to be setup properly. 

Ceiling is 10'.  There are 4 AP's withing 50 yards total.  E.g. The hallway is ~50 yards in length and has 4 AP's in it. They are all cieling mounted.  No obstructions at all.  LOS to all 4 from either end of the hallway.  Is that denisty not a little insane ? 

They are running 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz.  Full band on 5ghz BTW so DFS might be part of the problem.  But even the 2.4 stuff doesn't work worth beans.   Almost all are set to Full Auto.  I found a couple that were hard coded to channels in the more remote areas like the Lunch room.

The client is using Wifi Telephones and just walking down the hall, turning and walking down another hall, it drops the call.  You have LOS to  at least 4 AP's at any point, and in some cases 5 or 6, or even 8 if you stand in the open area.

Running a ping to from a latop (on 2.4Ghz) and drops for minutes at a time almost anywhere in the facility even if you are not moving.  So, when moving that should be roaming within the VLAN Right ? And that doesn't work.  But standing still and it doesn't see to work either - same thing minute long timeouts on ping.

The event logs in the Controller's GUI show no problems at all.  I don't have access beyond the GUI..

BTW does anyon know is this gear End of Life ?

Thanks for your help.

 

Ascendor
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?


@Zodapod wrote:

 

Ceiling is 10'.  There are 4 AP's withing 50 yards total.  E.g. The hallway is ~50 yards in length and has 4 AP's in it. They are all cieling mounted.  No obstructions at all.  LOS to all 4 from either end of the hallway.  Is that denisty not a little insane ? 

Oh. I thought it was 4 APs on 200 yards. 4 APs on 50 yards could be a bit too much, right. I'd just disable some of them, AT LEAST on 2.4GHz which useally spans a large area.

They are running 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz.  Full band on 5ghz BTW so DFS might be part of the problem.  But even the 2.4 stuff doesn't work worth beans.   Almost all are set to Full Auto.  I found a couple that were hard coded to channels in the more remote areas like the Lunch room.

My personal approach is to disable system-wide RRM, enable local auto channel (with a 3 or 4 channel plan on 2.4GHz and only DFS-free channels on 5GHz). disable auto power etc. Having single hard-coded channels for specific areas should be fine.

Btw: DFS channel changes should appear on the event logs.

 

The client is using Wifi Telephones and just walking down the hall, turning and walking down another hall, it drops the call.  You have LOS to  at least 4 AP's at any point, and in some cases 5 or 6, or even 8 if you stand in the open area.

Having so many access points I can imagine the client having issues. So reducing the APs seems a good starting point. Additionally, I would enable Fast Roaming and disable band steering. (I made the experience that I had a lot more unsucessful association attempts with band steering enabled.

BTW does anyon know is this gear End of Life ?

At least it's end of sale: http://h17007.www1.hpe.com/docs/products/eos/HP%20MSM720%20and%20760%20Access%20Controllers%20-%20April%202017%20-%20External.pdf

 


Btw: I have only experience with MSM765, but maybe 760 is similar ;)

Highlighted
CraigS1971
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

Hi Zodapod,

Equipment definitely End of Sale, must be close to, or End of Life.
You can not purchase ANY HP MSM wifi equipments anymore, since HP purchased Aruba, and sell that now.

Are your accesspoints in a seperate vlan?
It sounds like there is too much traffic and it is killing the APs. (I had this exact problem when a device flooded the wifi vlan)

It can also be interference from the other APs. (Had this too - one unit tests radar, and the that forces channnel changes/cooldowns etc)
Enable RRM and do a scan, let it set the channels, then disable RRM again.
This should set each AP radio to channels that will not interfere.
Then drop the AP radio power to 50% and test. You may have to go up or down in power.
Enable interference mitigation on the AP radios.

If this does not work, disable ALL DFS channels.
Keep channel 1,6,11 only on 2.4Ghz radio, and make sure the closest APs do not share channels.

Just keep in mind, the HP MSM stuff does not have the 802.1r,v,k standards for roaming built in.
I have never had proper roaming happen. (4x MSM760 mobility + 500x MSM460/560 APs)

Your devices will be fine between -75db and up (Closer to 0). Your devices will still connect between -75 and -100db but no traffic will flow.
This happens a lot because the HPs don't roam - the client must do the roam, and is set to be "stable", and so do not roam. (minutes long timeouts)

On windows set the wifi driver roaming aggression to medium-high (default = medium)
IOS9 > roaming set to happen when signal drops to -70db
Android7 > is ok-ish.

We are starting to deploy Aruba IAP-325's which roam correctly. They do have the r k v standards.
The APs actively move devices to a stronger signal. I can walk our one building without dropping calls - approx 200m/800' on 12x APs.

Regards,
Craig.

Ascendor
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?


@CraigS1971 wrote:


Just keep in mind, the HP MSM stuff does not have the 802.1r,v,k standards for roaming built in.
I have never had proper roaming happen. (4x MSM760 mobility + 500x MSM460/560 APs)

Your devices will be fine between -75db and up (Closer to 0). Your devices will still connect between -75 and -100db but no traffic will flow.
This happens a lot because the HPs don't roam - the client must do the roam, and is set to be "stable", and so do not roam. (minutes long timeouts)

Although HP MSM doesn't support modern roaming standards, you can still configure for better client-induced roaming:

1- You can enable fast-roaming (opportunistic key caching) on the VSC
2- You can set the "Distance between APs" to medium or small, so APs don't accept clients with a low signal strength, thus forcing the clients to roam

CraigS1971
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

Correct, but I found the opportunistic key cache caused connection problems with Apple IOS devices.

The smaller cells would most probably work, and I run my APs at about 90% power, but still have that issue.

What would you suggest as a good power setting?

 

 

Ascendor
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

I have not much experience with power settings, can't recommend anything there. I just have "academic" knowledge like:

 

  • Increasing power only improves ONE direction of the communication, the transmitting direction (from APs point of view)
  • Changing power also changes the RF pattern of the access point

That's why I also don't fiddle a lot with transmit power...

CraigS1971
Frequent Advisor

Re: MSM760 deployment Doesn't work - needs "Mobility" Licence ?

Hi Zodapod,

Have you fixed your issues?

Still need help?