Axis2 for VMS

[Richard J Maher]

Can someone please point me at the latest HP web-pages containing information on Axis2 for VMS?

I keep getting directed to: -
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/axis2/index.html

Which is quite old and tells me that Axis2 replaces the SOAP/Toolkit and that Axis2/VMS is a complete port of the Apache Axis2 1.3 project, but when I go to apache’s web site: -
http://ws.apache.org/axis2/

that tells me that 1.5.1 is the latest version. What’s more, I can’t find anywhere to download Axis2/C for VMS as in: -
http://ws.apache.org/axis2/c/ This is strange as history has certainly shown us that there is no shortage of HP/VMS employees with plenty of “free time” to undertake such a port.

So is VMS backing away from Axis2? Or perhaps not happy with the Apache Software Foundation at all? Well let’s look at the recent Swedish TUD presentations to find out. I counted not 1, 2 or 3 slides for gSOAP but an incredible 12 with diagrams, colours, charts, and HP employee e-mail address to contact – not bad for something purported to be done in someone’s free time and at no expense the VMS license-payer!

So the Axis2 presentation, with the full backing and funding of VMS engineering, has to be impressive - right? WRONG! One slide of damningly faint praise with no contact information or even a URL for further details on an outdated Axis2 port :-(

So who exactly is running VMS and setting the development agenda? Does no one else think it strange that, in an era where so many VMS Kernel engineers can be let go for being excess to requirements, we can have any number of erstwhile idle HP Employees allocating themselves copious VMS, time, resources, and dollars on a direct competitor to the stated goals of VMS Management?

Just please tell me if VMS customers can get access to industry-standard Apache Axis2 and Axis2/C, or are we to be corralled into someone’s petty little empire and job-creation scheme?

What VMS-management sanctioned project is next to be white-anted/undermined by HP employees with too much time on their hands? Is there anything that customers can commit to?

Regards Richard Maher

PS. I had looked for a roadmap with such details but the only one available seems to be as old as the Axis2 port.

[Cass Witkowski · Accepted solution]

Do you have support? Can you log a software call? Is there a need for a newer version of Axis? If so then please ask put that in the software call.

The squeaky wheel....

[Willem Grooters]

At times, I feel the same.

But at some point, I have to partly disagree with your complaint.

SWS (Apache), CIFS (Samba): These are projects that were started within engineering, for some good reason. All products, and OpenSource in particular, need constant attention to be kept up-to-date, and a group of persons that dedicate themselves to this task. But these do NOT have to reside within OPpenVMS engineering; the user community can do their development as well. That's how Linux (and GNU) have grown. That's where PHP has been updated, Perl is being ported, CURL is ket op-to-date. And where John Apps cs do their porting on gSoap and other produicts.

You can, and may, of couse moan that VMS engineering, or whoever is in charge of the agenda, on their lack of support. But you can also pick up the challenge and do things yourself. But, and here I must agree: support from OpenVMS engineering is crucial.

(There is an initiative for OpenSource on OpenVMS. Look at http://www.ccsscorp.com/VMSblog/static.php?page=static090726-125528 and other articles here.)

[Richard J Maher]

http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/05/14/9733806

"We all know that the HPTF, the HP Technology Forum, is a flag ship event for hp every year. It is our great pleasure to launch the much awaited OpenVMS 8.4 at HPTF 2010! We are happy to launch OpenVMS 8.4 at such a prestigious event. "
: : :
"Finally there will be a demo on modernizing applications using gSOAP. - Mr. N Narayanan "

Couldn't see any mention of industry standard Apache Axis2 in there let alone a "demo". WSIT anybody? Axis2/c? Nah, didn't think so :-(

HP/VMS employees continue to do whatever they like, whenever they damned-well like!

Regards Richard Maher

[USO]

I agree with Willem. The user community must collaborate with the OpenVMS engineering in order to improve and keep up-to-date some opensource ports like gSoap. But we need for that a bug tracker and a version control system shared with the OpenVMS engineering. We haven't these tools and opensource ports like Samba/CIFS, gSoap... have none of the advantages of free softwares. It seems to me that the OpenVMS engineering (the managers) does not understand the world of free softwares and how it works.

[Richard J Maher]

Allow me to take this opportunity to remind Willem and USO that HP/VMS already has a well publicised *and funded* strategy in this area; its calld WSIT and AXIS2. Is there something about that you don't understand?

Please explain why you are willing to see the continued loss of millions of license payer dollars on the stated aims of *industry standard* WSIT and Axis2 and at the same time continually undermining the effort with the excess white-ant capacity that continues to plague HP/VMS?

As I've said before, personal empires, and job creation schemes are far more important to HP/VMS employees than strategic direction or customer care :-(

Regards Richard Maher

PS. Hold on, here's one off the presses "dotNET MONO for VMS" there's months of fun for more HP/VMS employees with nothin' to do and all day to do it in!

And NetBeans is proving a tad unpopular, so of course we can afford the duplicity of Eclipse now can't we?

And I'm sure there's always room for another browser; after all VMS only has 5. (And what a great GUI platform it is :-()

Yep. Willem and USO, you just keep spending them VMS licens-payer dollars. Let the good time roll!

[USO]

Richard,

The OpenVMS engineering guys DON'T continue to do whatever they like. They do what their managers give them orders to do. And these managers want a short payback period. So, don't expect that the OpenVMS engineering spends enough time working on a product like Axis/gSoap.

Each time I speak with the OpenVMS engineering guys during events like bootcamps, I ask for an update of X11/Motif which is in an old version. This old version prevents several of my customers from improving the graphics interface of their monitoring tools and prevents from porting a lot of free softwares using GTK2/QT/WxWidgets. But HP does not care and has no vision beyond the next shareholders meeting...

Rather than moaning, do what the OpenVMS engineering don't do (when it's possible of course).

Thierry Uso.

[Richard J Maher]

Hi Thiery,

> The OpenVMS engineering guys DON'T
> continue to do whatever they like.
> They do what their managers give
> them orders to do.

Oh Really? That's *very* interesting! Exactly who gave the orders to invest so much of VMS license-payer revenue in gSOAP? C'mon Thiery, you know so much; put up or shut up!

You seem to be missing the point that Joe VMS-Customer is trying to work out where to put his SOAP development budget and after being stung severely with the pathetic debacle of Brdigeworks and SOAP/Toolkit he has akso swallowed the HP/VMS *Company Line* of WSIT and Axis2. Now, to Joe's great suprise he can find no Apache Axis2/C support and no WSIT or Axis2/JAVA demos at *any* VMS conference yet apparently idle VMS employees are permitted to clock up as many hours as they like to gSOAP.

Now if WSIT and Axis2 (the published and officially supported strategic direction for VMS customers) are being abandoned by HP and Joe once again has had his fingers burned and many development dollars and training wasted, then don't you think it's about time to tell him?

Or are you just waiting for the white-ants to have been successful enough to secure official HP/VMS support for gSOAP before you all come out from under the beds, or closet, or wherever else you're lurking?

Regards Richard Maher

[Cass Witkowski]

Could someone from HP replay in this message about the official direction?

[Richard J Maher]

Hi Cass,

That would seem like a very reasonable request for customers to make, but unfortunately "what customers want" always seems to be filtered and deflected by the prism of self-interest long before it reaches those who could make a difference :-(

FYI Axis2/C 1.6 appears to be hot off the presses with some very useful features: -
http://ws.apache.org/axis2/c/

Looks good don't you think? Just what one expects from the Apache Foundation.

And when Joe VMS-Customer looks here: -
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/axis2/index.html

He could be forgiven for thinking that he might be able to take advantage of this functionality real soon now. That is, until he sees that the web-page has not been updated in almost 2 years :-(

So to sum things up from my (and other VMS customers') perspective: -
1) HP/VMS cannot justify the investment and expense of industry standard Apache Axis2 for VMS even though this is the long-stated supported direction and is where customers have been investing their development budgets.

2) HP/VMS can no longer justify the expense of retaining the ability, experience, and productivity of the Ruth Gothenburgs, Andy Goldsteins, and Christian Mosers et al of this world

3) HP/VMS has tens of man-years of slush-funds, resources, and facilities available for erstwhile idle HP/VMS employees to manufacture a position for themselves supporting whatever freeware de jour (gSOAP)takes their fancy.

4) As long as they don't actually "cancel" Axis2 then they won't look as silly as they did when they cancelled BridgeWorks and SOAP/Toolkit. An absolute machiavellian masterstroke! Customers too stupid to see the writing on the wall only have themselves to blame :-(

Why did DEC go broke again?

Regards Richard Maher