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HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

 
Infrastructure man
Occasional Contributor

HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

We bought a new ML350 with SATA RAID option. After receiving the server it was astonishing to see that HP assemble Maxtor Diamondmax 10 disks. Far better is the warranty: only one year for SATA disks. Unfortunately we missed this information before buying the server.

To say it clear:
Maxtor provides the Maxline series (SATA) for servers - with 5 years warranty.
Maxtor itself provides 3 years warranty for Diamondmax customers. HP cuts it to one year.

Does anyone have an idea why HP builds servers with disks intended for desktop usage? Is it in punishment of buying SATA technology instead of SCSI disks? Or is about 10 Euro price difference per disk a reason to sell such a bad combination?
22 REPLIES

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I want to add my support for this question. I did not see your thread, and started a similar one a few hours after yours at

http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1044167

I am shocked HP only gives a 1 Year warranty when all of the drive manufacturers give 3 or 5 years. Thank you for letting us know HP is using Maxtor, and worse yet, the cheap non-server model. Our experience with Maxtor has been terrible in recent years, and because of it, we only use Seagate disks now. Seagates come with a 5 year warranty and seem to live much longer than Maxtor in production.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Wow, just reading this as well. So, I says to my HP Sr. Tech Rep: waddup? Seems pretty lame. Answer: Don't use SATA drives on your critical servers..."WTF!!!", I interrupted. ... then he came back with this: "All drives are protected by a Pre-Failure Warranty when used with a HP array controller (SMART or SMART-2) and Systems Insight Manager, allowing hard drives to be replaced before failure free of charge. In addition, all drives are covered by a one to three-year limited on-site warranty, or the remaining warranty of the HP CPU in which it is installed (up to three years)."

We don't use SATA, but it's the principle of the matter.

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "In addition, all drives are covered by a one to three-year limited on-site warranty, or the remaining warranty of the HP CPU in which it is installed (up to three years)."

The ProLiant DL320's we just bought have a 3 year warranty. The HP drives for sale on HP's website are listed as having a 1 year warranty.

So which is it, 1 year or 3 years for the drives? Or does it depend on whether (a) you buy the drive WITH the server, or (b) by the drive separately from HP after the server is purchased?

And to the guy who told you not to use SATA in production, he needs to pull his head out of his butt. We've had excellent long-term success with SATA with hundreds of disks in production servers.

Large capacity SCSI costs a small fortune. Just one 300GB SCSI disk COSTS AS MUCH AS A COMPLETE DL320 SERVER. The same 300 GB in SATA form from Seagate is a mere $105, and has the same 5 year warranty as the SCSI disks.

On ordinary web servers, SATA is perfect, and if you do a load balanced cluster where a disk failure is no big deal, inexpensive commodity hardware ROCKS.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Of course I'm in complete agreement with you on this. I think that HP needs to step up and warranty the disks as they warranty the server. They (HP) has enough clout with the HDD manufacturers to force them to provide better warranty and HP should pass that on to their corporate customers.

...this little note ya'll started has me on a fire-roll ... we are going to the new C-Class blades ...they have Fujitsu SAS drives (only option). Reading this on the SATA drives leads me to believe that the SAS drives might be in the same boat. Hopefully not, since I can't get the U320's on the C-Class.
sgunelius
Valued Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I could be wrong, but don't most customers depend on the server warranty and/or CarePack to cover break/fix for components installed in that server?

I've never thought to determine the individual warranty life of a controller, network adapter or disk. I've been able to have the component repaired or replaced provided the warranty or CarePack hadn't expired on the chassis.

Scott

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Perhaps, but if you follow the link to ProLiant accessories, then to Hard Drives, here is one of the options for SATA.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/proliantstorage/serial/sata/index.html

Under the "What's New" bullet point you will see "All SATA drives ship standard with a one year warranty"

Maybe, just maybe, if you buy the disk with the server, it gets included under the umbrella of the server's 3 year warranty. But I do know that if you goto the HP website and buy the disk, they say you only get 1 year, which is pathetic.
sgunelius
Valued Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I would be worried if I did make an in-warranty service call on a failed SATA drive with let's say the DL360 G4p and they pulled that out of the hat. I think I'd probably throw a fit worthy of publishing to the net...provided I didn't blow a blood vessel and kick it right there on the phone.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Agreed. We do our own warranty work on HP devices, so individual components are important. I'm sure that there are other companies out there doing the same thing. I'm sure that there are companies out there that are not looking at the individual components, but rather the server as whole. I'm nailing our HP guys on this ... hopefully the HP techs reading this thread might call BS on it as well.

LOL, this is so confusing on the HP PB: "NOTE: All drives are protected by a Pre-Failure Warranty when used with a HP array controller (SMART or SMART-2) and Insight Manager, allowing hard drives to be replaced before failure free of charge. In addition, all drives are covered by a one to three-year limited on-site warranty, or the remaining warranty of the HP CPU in which it is installed (up to three years)."

"covered by a one to three year limited"???

"or the remaining warranty of the CPU"???

...at who's discretion? The OK-Compaq-India tech?
Infrastructure man
Occasional Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Dear all,

not enough HP assembles desktop disks in servers, they didn't trust them longer than 12 months. Please check "HP ProLiant and X86 Servers and Options - Global Limited Warranty and Technical Support", doc #392512-027. On page 8 you can see all SATA and ATA drives are inferior stuff.
And "regardless of the warranty period for the system in which they are installed". Great, we payed an extra fee for four years warranty.
The risk of using this disks starting in month 13 has the customer alone!
Risk in usage of my servers? Not funny at all.

Does anyone knows what's up with the server design department at HP? Are they outsourced to India?

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I don't know about their design department, but their support department is overseas and they are ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS! If you ask them a question too difficult they will turf your call. Oops, accidentally disconnected. Gee, what a coincidence that on a 20 minute phone call it only gets disconnected when you get to the point they don't know what to say. I think they are taught to specifically NOT think outside the box and NOT use their brains. If you ask a question that 3 seconds of independent thought would answer, but the words are not on their canned script, then they give you the OTHER canned script... "unfortunately I cannot answer that" or something similar.

My most recent contact with them was Tuesday, trying to locate the part number for hard drive carriers. I got the answer on this forum in a matter of hours-- got part number, price, and even the link to the HP PartSurfer. Those worthless turds in India (or wherever they are) promised-- PROMISED-- to call me back by Tuesday afternoon, or Wednesday morning at the latest with information on whether these things are even available. It's now Thursday and they still haven't called, and probably never will. Worthless, worthless, WORTHLESS.

Dell learned their lesson farming support call centers to India. Their consumer calls still go there, but after SO MANY complaints (speaking from personal experiene, it was awful) they moved their server support back to the U.S.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

OK, got an update from our National Sales Rep. ALL components take on the warranty life of the server based on the serial number. That explains the BS line from the HP PB ... "between 1 and 3 years".

Y'all might want to confirm with your sales rep, but that satisfies me.

Next issue...this one is dead.

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Did he clarify how that applies to components added after purchase, which are not **originally purchased with** the server? Example: Buy ProLiant server today with a 3 year warranty. Next week purchase an HP hard drive and put that drive into the new ProLiant.

Does that drive retain its original 1 year warranty, or does it now come under the 3 year warranty of the server itself?

I suspect the drive does NOT get the longer warranty, because that would open HP to a lot of fraud. If a disk with a 1 year warranty fails in year #2, all someone would need to do is mount it in their brand new server and claim it has a 3 year warranty.

Something sounds fishy....

MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Danged good question. Now, don't get me wrong here, we use HP and love their products, but we hold their feet to the fire on stuff like this. National sales rep states (I was with him when he jumped on the phone for this question):
"Per the Acct Customer Svc Mangager: yes, even if you put in a drive that has just a 1 year warrantly into a Proliant server (with a 3yr warranty), that drive takes on the remainder of the SERVER warranty, regardless of the drive warranty".
So, yes, that 1yr warranty drive will take on the longer server warranty.

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Thanks for the info. Now if we could only get them to use a good brand of hard drives, instead of Maxtor. Max used to make some pretty good drives back in the 90's, but in recent years we've had such poor service life from them that we no longer use them at all.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

I've used Maxtor in my personal stuff, and I agree with you 100%. Pure crap. I've never used them in the server arena. I know I have replaced at least 2 Maxtors (under warranty) before finally replacing with the WD Raptors (drool...still love those drives). I'll curse Maxtor for years to come.

In our server farm, nothing but U320's or now the new SAS drives (also very nice).

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

We've had pretty good luck with Seagate Barracuda SATA models, and their warranty is 5 years. For our mission critical stuff we use SCSI from Fujitsu or Seagate, but for the majority of web, email, and application servers we use SATA because you just can't beat the price/performace ratio of those things.

All our SATA machines run mirrored disks, so a disk failure (usually) results in nothing more than 5-10 minutes downtime while we swap in a new drive, reboot the machine, and let the system re-mirror itself onto the new disk once it's back online.

Small price to pay for BIG savings compared to SCSI, over hundreds of servers.
Infrastructure man
Occasional Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Hi MMurfster,

you're the lucky guy: having better warranty in US. Let's give you some information from Germany:

There is still the written statement in the official warranty: "2)ATA and SATA hard drives have a maximum warranty period of one (1) year regardless of the warranty period for the system in which they are installed."

So you can trust a sales rep (only verbal) or trust the written warranty. I don't want to dispute with the legal department of HP what's right ...

Our HP dealer stated: if we buy additional SATA disks, the new one will have only one year warranty. Fact in Germany.

Let's assume we have the server warranty for the disks. If we buy new ones, there is still the risk of using desktop disks. Nothing where I ever store enterprise critial data on it.

HP delivers junk disks for usage in our enterprise areas. Inspiring confidence?

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

We don't get a 5 year warranty from HP. I was talking about the 5 year warranty on the (non-HP) drives we buy from Seagate. Because HP uses Maxtor drives, there is no way I'll buy disks from them. We have had extremely poor service from Maxtor drives in the past few years. The most spectacular total-disaster drive failures I've seen in my career were all on Maxtor disks that failed catastrophically while in service. Our experience with Seagate is they live longer, and when they fail, they do so gradually which gives us enough time to respond and save the data.
MMurfster
Frequent Advisor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Infrastructure man (Gruss Gott): Well, since the language of what I read was vague, I had to rely on my sales guys and the answers they get from the Product Support Managers. It "might" be that HP is taking advantage of some Euro-rule, but I'm just not sure. I do feel comfortable with the answer because frankly, HP would rather do business with us than not over a few hundred dollars. They would eat it. Now, if it was a mass quantity of drives, well, maybe there might be some negotiations or at worst, a legal issue.

I can only speak of my experience. We do a lot of volume with HP and we have a good partner relationship...but don't get me wrong, we also have the influence to hammer them on some BS like this. Again, I don't see an environment where we would run into this, but...just in case...I went to bat.

...besides, I had fun lighting fires under HP's butt over SATA drives ... and anytime I get a chance to hammer Maxtor, I do. How fun... :)
NMory
Respected Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Guys for information about HP's warranties check this page:

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/warranty/index.html

LN

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Yep... and I quote:

"ATA and SATA hard drives have a maximum warranty period of one (1) year regardless of the warranty period for the system in
which they are installed."
Infrastructure man
Occasional Contributor

Re: HP ProLiant SATA: buy cheap and sell dear

Ok friends, it's fun reading you're having the same thoughts about junk disks and legal warranty issues. I think we're looking for the same: reliable stuff - that we can concentrate to the rest of our daily business (there's enough left ...).

One last resort didn't work (worse luck): I tried to buy the SATA frames from HP and install SATA enterprise disks. But HP only (!) sells frames together with junk disks. And the type of disks are a big secret. Our dealer wasn't able to provide the disk model in advance.

About 240 bucks for a frame (and a disk for my gaming PC) is hard to take ...

Let's give em fire if they try to spoof us further ...