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Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

 
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Gediminas Vilutis
Frequent Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume


@Patrick Neuner wrote:

heard nothing, I thought anything will be anounced on  HP Discover, as they sent ous Newsletters about important announcements, say yes to change and more... well, I didn't find a note about Lefthand at all, just EOL of current VSA.

 

Patrick


According to rumours I heard, 11.5 is planned somewhere in August or September. And no unmap yet :( 

 

oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

given their track record, i'll need some clairification, is that august '14, '15, or '16   ;)  lol (yay for morbid humor)

 

 

just curious, if it doesn't have unmap, what could it possibly have?  is this just to allow upgrades from v10.5?  If it doesn't have unmap or some other features that bring it back on par with other VSAs, I hate to say it, but it might be time for the rats to start jumping ship before it completely sinks.  Its a sad day when the likes of a startup like Starwind can manage to include all the features of HP+unmap+SMIS+data dedupe over a year ago and HP still can't manage it.

PavelOn
Occasional Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Bad messages... it is so bad, and HP is silent as mouse... HP team are you here?:)

 

When we buyed 4500G2, so first sales with their tech. specialist poorly designed our cluster  migrated from phys. hw. After we migrate about 30% production servers we had storage IOPS issues. Sales say - hey you need more fasters hdds. Hmm. Ok after some emails and complaints we get nice offer from HP and buy new 4630, but now I have about 89% full space, because 60% are thin deleted date. Im thinking, that when I will write to sales, so I will get mess. as "Hey, dont have you enough space? Buy new node!" 

 

:)) 

 

Funny.. Lefthand team is sleeping, slow and cant send any news about news version and roadplan ... 

 

Bad for us, customers and on end for HP too... 

 

 

Patrick Neuner
Regular Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Sales will tell you "get a 3Par" ;) only $2 per GB Flash Storage.... 

oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

that might be what storevirtual support is saying indirectly now too :-/

 

If that is their plan, they would save a lot of ill will if they simply re-branded the line one final time and found a way to mesh the storevirtual line into the 3par ecosystem or bring the 3par into storevirtual.  I can't say I'm large enough to even make any blip on their radar, but if we have to move off of storevirtual because its not being developed anymore we will not be going to 3par unless they roll over and make a deal we can't pass up.

 

 

a_o
Valued Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

The only issue is that when one does an apples to apples 3PAR StoreServ vs. Lefhand StoreVirtual, the value in StoreVirtual quickly jumps out at you.

 

A few of the critical features in StoreVirtual have to be licensed at an additional cost with 3PAR StoreServ.

For instance, Snapshots and Replication require additional licenses with StoreServ.

It's unclear if De-dupe requires licensing.

 

Regardless, these things add up. So I would take the $2/GB pricing being bandied around with a grain of salt.

In fact, that pricing factors in compression and de-dupe.  IMO, the real pricing is closer to $8-$10/GB.

 

It's ironic that we shorlisted StoreVirtual and Starwind, after also looking at Dell and EMC before finally going  with HP.

I'm seriously contemplating moving to Starwind so as to be able to leverage the existing hardware investments.

 

PavelOn
Occasional Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Fast translate from Czech via G.Trans. - email from HP supp.:

 

Hello,

I react about an service request number 4648625700

Date of release of a new version of OS Lefthand (SAN / iQ) 11.5. There have not been clarified. It is but expected in a few weeks or months maximum.
Function unmap most likely not included in the version 11.5

If and when added so in version 12, but is not yet issued any release notes and adding to unmap are only speculation.

Regards

Martin Tlapak
Technical Solutions Consultant
Hewlett-Packard Company

 

Viva HP! Tens of thousand thrown out the window:(.

PavelOn
Occasional Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

a_o: Starwind was(is) Lefthand?

a_o
Valued Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

No, Starwind is a different company.

 

Seems to be an upstart from one of the former Soviet republics.

Lefhand was acquired by HP a few months before we bought their products.
Their product has now been re-branded by HP as "StoreVirtual"

oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

lol.  "a few weeks or months"... or years... or never...  or when god wills it ;)

 

 

 

We looked at starwind and HP/Lefthand at the time and went Lefthand since we wanted to go with a "VSA" solution.  These days some people could probably get away with the ESX version of their VSA or the microsoft iSCSI target solution for those with Hyper-V.

 

I haven't outgrown our current investment in StoreVirtual, but when the time comes, I'm sure we are going to give some serious looks elsewhere as the other VSA options have all pretty much become at a minimum feature-equivalent and most have added additional feature benefits over StoreVirtual.  If you think about it, there hasn't really be any new feature other than support for the latest OS or "now with 64bit VSAs" for at least three years and that is ages for a software to be static in such a developing area such as iSCSI storage.

 

Bart_Heungens
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

I understand the frustration but I cannot understand some of the remarks here...

Adaptive Optimization is a cool feature which you get without additional licenses in the VSA... The entire product line is quite complete, space reclamation is on it's way this year and the VSA has a proven install base that the others only can dream of...

My VSA based SAN at home has an uptime of more that 4,5 years... Don't think many others can say this...

 

Personally I would have preferred too that there was faster evolution in the product, but I am not the HP management... If they say that 3PAR is the way to go... Shout at them...

 

But I still love the product...

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Gediminas Vilutis
Frequent Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume


@Bart_Heungens wrote:

I understand the frustration but I cannot understand some of the remarks here...

Adaptive Optimization is a cool feature which you get without additional licenses in the VSA... The entire product line is quite complete, space reclamation is on it's way this year and the VSA has a proven install base that the others only can dream of...

My VSA based SAN at home has an uptime of more that 4,5 years... Don't think many others can say this...

 

Personally I would have preferred too that there was faster evolution in the product, but I am not the HP management... If they say that 3PAR is the way to go... Shout at them...

 

But I still love the product...


 

Ok, please tell me what of these new great features of last 3 or 4 LH OS releases I could use with my old installation of ~20 P4000 G2 nodes? FC? AO? I'm personally sick of that 'clean storage' routine - each 6-8 months copy data out, delete LUN, create LUN, copy data in... 

 

 

I completely understand HP - they add new 'sellable' features, like mentioned FC connectivity, AO, etc. - everything is to done to differenciate the product and boost new sales. But by doing so they forgot the needs of old users... :(

 

oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

very true.  AO IS a new feature and definitely a good one, so I stand corrected, there has been one new feature added in the last three years.

 

As for uptime and install base...  agree 100% as well and that is why we chose Lefthand over Starwind or another option.  That said, the uptime and availability feature of this soltuion was novel and unique in this price range 3-5 years ago, but that just isn't the case anymore and today starwind can achieve similar numbers (for a small VSA install, not for a larger SAN solution).  

 

I won't say the VSA solution is a bad one now, but features like unmap are quickly becomming mandatory instead of cutting edge optional items and given the recent track record of the StoreVirtual team and their scilence on any developement roadmaps leads me to be concerned about my plans for when we do grow out of our current solution.

 

I see the StoreVirtual solution analagous to the NSX sportscar.  Back in the day it was a cutting edge machine capable of new supercar performance and even today you cannot say its a "bad" car, but if I'm in the market for sportscar today, a "like new" NSX just isn't going to hold up against against almost any used late model "low end" porsche or something like a nissan z-series car.

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Patrick Neuner
Regular Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

I also don't say Lefthand is bad. But at the time we bought the solution, thin provisioning was one of the features we requested and their sales sold us. Our bad we figured out too late, that it wasn't real thin provisioning as unmap was missing.

 

Back in 2012 they said, it will come but can't state when. If the support guy is right (which I hope is not) we have to wait until 2015 until it finally comes. If we read other resources, it will come this year. Anyway, it's already 2-3 years, that a feature "will come" - for planning it is mandatory to have a definit road map and not - waiting for next release, 10.0, no unmap, oh great, fast 10.5, no unmap, great 11 came out, no unmap... 11,5 might have it, probably not. So it's just a guessing and no info, when to really expect it, like rumors said Q2 2014, then somewhen 2014, then yes unmap is in 11,5, then unmap will not be in 11.5. 

 

Our distributor talked to HP directly First week in May with the info, 11.5 will be released within next 4 weeks, as we all know, this time passed too. I say "Yes to change", "YES to change the information published by HP". 

 

For our environment, we loose over 50 % Data and I dare to extend our Lefthand as the information politics is so bad and no mather to whom you talk 3 people, 3 answers. If I know - unmap will come Q1/2015, my decision is different, as if said, will be Q3/2014. 

 

If I would have the knowledge I have 2 years later, I would have never bought a lefthand. 

Sure - I would have tested unmap right away and through the offer back at them telling, feature missing, that was our fault - not to test thin provisioning in depth and just to believe in sales. 

 

And 2 years back, lefthand wasn't the only solution within this price range, but we have all HP and didn't really want to move to a non HP solution. Now we think of getting boxes with IODrives inside, using VSAN like solution, pay less and get more. And yes, this wasn't an option 2 years back, now it is and no Unmap means, we have to switch earlier than expected, as again, I dare to extend our current Lefthands, when we should have more than 60 % free storage but only have 15 % left. 

 

So not talking about Lefthands Quality, but bad Quality of HP disclosing information. 

 

Thanks

Patrick  

Patrick Neuner
Regular Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Version 11.5 is here... and guess what. 

NO Trim, at least I couldn't read it somewhere, correct me if I am wrong. 

 

 

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

11.5 is out - and again - no trim/discard/unmap support for Lefthand ...

 

https://h20392.www2.hp.com/portal/swdepot/displayProductInfo.do?productNumber=StoreVirtualSW#sv-existing

PavelOn
Occasional Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Can you update via CMS? 

Patrick Neuner
Regular Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

no Update to 11.5 possible at the moment - they pulled back the Update due to problems ... shame on HP - the 2. Major Upgrade they have to pull back because of problems ...
Patrick Neuner
Regular Advisor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume


@Bart_Heungens wrote:

Hi,

 

Cannot tell you anything in detail but 2014 will be a good year! ;-)

 

 

Kr,

Bart


well... 2014 is soon past..... indeed, was a very good year, but not if you owned a lefthand. But 2015 will be a better year, that's the year we DISCARD our lefthand, no matter if it supports discard or not. A shame that big companies buy products and then development stalls, stalling a way, that sales promises 3 years ago haven't been held. That disappoints me about HP. 

 

 

 

Bart_Heungens
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Hi Patrick,

 

I understand your feeling, I am also waiting for the 12.0 release... It was announced at VMworld, I have seen it running at HP already (so it is there) don't know why it takes that long to have it published on their FTP servers...

 

 

Kr,

Bart

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oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

I won't pretend to be an install large enough for HP to care about us, but count us in among the group that won't be renewing our support agreement.  We are actively looking for alternatives since this product line seems like a dying line...  has anyone on the Storeserv team actually ever posted on this forum?  Its pathetic that there is not a single active person on the team that redularly posts here.

Bart_Heungens
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

Too bad to hear... I have seen the roadmap for 2015 and for me it proofs the product is not death... At all...

 

Let it be clear that these forums are not official support forums from HP, if you have an issue you should always open a support case, and for features and release of software, contact your account manager... I did ask and got this information...

 

 

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oikjn
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

bart, I"ve been a big fan of the system and an active participant on this forum.  I wish I could maintain that optimism you have, but there is little practical reason I see to do that. 

 

What is the point of this forum?  Why have it if not for a place for support, advice, and ideally a less formal way to interact with the developers?  I'm not saying there needs to be 24/7 monitoring of the forum, but the only reason for this forum is to provide insight and support.  If it wasn't here, everybody would be forced to open up to get their questions answered and likely flood support with redundant questions and noise.  Most major developers get that, not sure why HP (or at least the storevirtual team) doesn't.

 

Why is the roadmap hidden?  Why not publish it or make new upcomming features known.  Microsoft does it, intel does it, the only one that doesn't is Apple and unfortunately they are no apple.  There are three reasons I see why they might not want to publish this.  (1)  They aren't confident in meeting any timeline (I assume this is true as they were so off with v11) (2) They aren't confident they could ever deliver whatever they put on the timeline. (3) They think a roadmap will give their competition information they could use to their advantage...  well I think when v8.5 was current that might have been almost valid, but these days they are so behind they should take some notes from others to just catch up with the rest.  I"m looking at you dedupe, unmap, 2+ tier AO, storage offloading, SMI-S (no it doesn't count as a feature until its fully supported).

 

Bet nobody from StoreVirtual will chime in at all here since they probably will never see this.

 

This thread has been open almost a year.  In february you said 2014 was going to be a good year.  Looking back, do you think it was?  I don't.  Why would 2015 be any different?  I wish it would be because the VSA product was an industry leader and I really want to continue to use it, but the writing on the wall for us is that it just won't make sense in the year to come as better alternatives emerge.

 

If any HPer cares to comment here or send me a PM, I can (and would love to) be persuaded otherwise.

Bart_Heungens
Honored Contributor

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume

oikjn,

 

I share your feelings... But if there is a manager inside HP that decides to put priorities outside this forum, I can only mention it when I meet those people however I cannot change it... In some forums it seems to work (like Oneview), on the storage forums there are some people like hpstorageguy that follows as well but most of these people do it outside their job assignments...

 

I have seen the software functioning, probably it is a question of testing and validation before it goes out... Don't know all the HP workflows...

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HPEStorageGuy
Neighborhood Admin

Re: Reclaiming Space from a thin provisioned netword raid-5 volume


@oikjn wrote:

I won't pretend to be an install large enough for HP to care about us, but count us in among the group that won't be renewing our support agreement.  We are actively looking for alternatives since this product line seems like a dying line...  has anyone on the Storeserv team actually ever posted on this forum?  Its pathetic that there is not a single active person on the team that redularly posts here.


Hi @oikjn - there are a few people from the team that post here but not sure it's obvious from their screen name.  Also, I assume since we're in the StoreVirtual forum, you meant the StoreVirtual team (and not StoreServ). 

 

I'm here (but also active on tons of other sites so not checking on a daily a basis) but if you ever need help, please reach out to me: hpstorageguy at hp dot com.