POINTS - PART 8,765,129-b

[Shannon Petry]

I bring this up to continue a debate, and invite others to join in.

A recent thread popped up, and even though it had a bunny on it, I wanted to see what it said. I made an addition, and asked for no points. The user had assigned alot of 10's, and since the bunny is there it is a solved issue.

I saw additional comments, and one of them was a different member of the forums requesting points be assigned to all answers.



I noted to this member that this is not right, the user already paid dues and the question is closed. There is no way for a user to "close" a thread.

I even gave this example to the member. Lets say you go to a fine dining establishment, eat and pay the bill and leave the tip. On the way out the door, the diner offers you some fine mints. Would you like to be demanded payment for the mints after you were given them?

The answer from the forums member was that in the forums ediquette it states that to be really closed, the user has to make a posting of "thanks, problems solved" or something.

Have some of us gone so far in the quest for the almighty "POINT" that we ignore the basic rules a user gets when posting a question?


Once again...we need...

1. CLOSE THREAD OPTION
This will keep point mongers from seeing a 10, then spamming questions in hopes that they will get some too. If it is not possible to make a thread no longer writable, make it automagically assign a 0 to the post after the user assignes 10(s).

2&3. UPDATE FORUMS EDUQUETTE

Previously I asked for an update that would let pros know it is not appropriate to post about points in threads as an exclusive entry. It adds absolutely nothing of any value to a post.

In addition, if it states that a user MUST type a message saying thanks, then the wording needs to be changed to OPTIONALLY.

Assigning a 10 according to the spash screen states that the problem is solved. The forums ediquette page DOES NOT supercede the guidelines posted by Dan, and should not interfere.

In this case, it has.


Sincerely,
Shannon Petry

[Shannon Petry]

I wanted to add that upon submitteing a question, this is what the user is presented with:

Thank you for your continued participation in the community, and we appreciate that you're using this service to get peer's
advice to your tough questions.

Please remember that you're asked to review and rate the answers you receive to each question you post. When you return to
the IT resource center forums and view your replies, please assign points to each response you receive. When you're logged
in, this will appear as a button next to each response.

This is a critical feedback mechanism and ONLY YOU can rate each answer you've received. So, please take a moment to make t
he community knowledge being shared here that much richer. As you assign points, please keep in mind the scale that applies
:

N/A: The answer was simply a point of clarification to my

original question 1- 3: The answer didn't really help answer my question but thanks for your assistance!
4- 7: The answer helped with a portion of my question, but I still need some additional help.
8-10: The answer has solved my problem completely! Now I'm a happy camper!

If you have questions about the Points System, please look for more information in the Forum section of the online help.

Again, feedback is appreciated. We'd love to hear from you!

>>

I dont see anywhere in that screen that a user has to read and abide by an external document, post to their own thread stating the problem was fixed, etc...

[S.K. Chan]

Which thread are you talking about ?

[Shannon Petry]

SK,

I wont say as I was trying to have some form of anonymity for the other person.

Shannkn

[someone_4]

Hi Shannon

Intresting situation that you bring to the table. I like you idea of automagically assign a 0 to the post after the user assignes 10(s). I do not think that a thread should be made unwrittable. Because there have been several times when a new converstaion starts up that is related to the orginal thread.

Now I suggest having another catagory call certifications and also a non-technical catagory.

Richard

[John Bolene]

Well...maybe there needs to be a different graphic for a closed (solved) thread, such as a dead bunny...LOL

threads can always be added to and some threads from years ago get posted to and resurected.

Some threads never get solved or the author never comes back to say that it was solved and what he did to fix it.

I try to do this, but may have failed to complete some of my questions.

As always, we get what we get, sometimes we know, sometimes we never know, quite a few times even the solution does not get a bunny or any points for that matter.

my 2 cents

[Patrick Wallek]

Shannon, et al

A direct quote from the Etiquette document:

"After your problem has been solved, please take the time to post a summary of how it was resolved. Oftentimes it is not just one answer that solved a problem, but maybe a combination of several answers. It can be quite helpful to future searchers as the solution, if summarized appropriately, may help them to solve their own problem."

Note that it does NOT say that it is REQUIRED that you post a thanks message after the problem was solved. Nowhere in there do I say that. All I am trying to do is to make a polite request of people to post a message stating what solved the problem.

You are also correct in that the splash screen after you post something does not say that anyone MUST read the Etiquette document. This isn't even an officiall HP document. I don't work for HP.

Take the document for whatever you think it's worth. Anyone is free to agree or disagree with it.

[Robert-Jan Goossens]

Shannon,

I agree with you, if you add a comment to a closed (8/10 points) questions the part of the user is over. The comment could be usefull for future searches and is of free will only on the user side to assign points.

My ??? 2 cents

Kind regards,

Robert-Jan.

[Geoff Wild]

Good topic...

I like the Closed Thread idea.

Some thoughts/questions:

If "Assigning a 10 according to the spash screen states that the problem is solved." - does that mean there should only ever be one 10 point answer to any thread?

What if 5 people had really good answers?

What if 2 of them had the same answer and posted within a couple of minutes of each other - yet when they went to type in their reply - the other one was not yet posted?

What if you accidently make a mistake and assign 10 points - then realize you still have an issue? I guess you open another thread with the same topic? Won't this clutter up the forum?

As far as your example - what if you go back to the restaurant the next night - do you expect to be served for free?

This is turning out to be quite philosophical...

Also on the splash page:

"Each response you receive is eligible to earn between 1-10 points based on your judgement of its value. You won't need to worry about running out of points and not having enough for when a truly awesome response rolls in that deserves a 10. "

Doesn't say anything about only 1....

But it does say:

"Although message rating is not mandatory it is STRONGLY ENCOURAGED. "

So points don't have to be handed out at all...


Rgds...Geoff

BTW - I would never refer to anyone on this forum as a "point monger" - even as a jest. People participate here to help others, to find answers, and to learn.

[Michael Steele_2]

This is turning into something more akin to who's the capitalist: who's the socialist?

I really don't see the same 'point whoring??? that others are seeing. And personally find myself exhilarated at the conquest of achieving more and accumulating more points. I like it. It???s why I'm here. I need the challenge that the accumulation not only brings but the challenge that learning brings.

When I'm not handling outages where I work, I'm creating 'what if' scenarios for others and the solutions to these ???what if??? outages. This forum provides me with numerous examples.

I relish it.

For example, currently there is a posting on the forum about the Oracle sysdate failing to sync up with the system time. I spent a huge amount of time looking for this solution and made no contribution.

I loved every minute of it.

It was something new and different from the usual outages.

The search was stimulating.

Or should I say, the hunt.

I loved every minute of it.

My concern therefore, is for any kind of censorship from these ???hunts???, simply because your philosophical opinion is not the same as mine own.

In fact, this whole ???point??? debate reminds me more and more of my formal logic class in my under graduate: What are the definitions each person has or uses to define his or her own universe?

What are the definitions each person has or uses to assign points?

It???s really up to each individual author / hunter.

[Denver Osborn]

I think Shannon's got a pretty good idea about "closing threads"

It would be nice if they could add it to the forums. Giving the author the option to close it and prevent any additional posts from being added could be a good thing.

I've come accross posts where another user searches, finds something similar.. then will post "I have that problem too... did you get a fix?" Atleast if this type of thread could be closed then it would encourage a new thread to be opened instead of having a "piggyback" author. This way if the 2nd author has to open his own thread, theyd be able to assign points themselves.

I don't agree with it "automagically" assigning 0 points after the 1st bunny has been assigned. Often there are multiple solutions to the same problem, and for an easy post it could get 3 responses that solve it w/ in minutes. If an option is added, it should be up to the author to consider it solved and closed.

Interesting topic. I hope Dan and the rest of the community can run with it.

no points please! ;)

-denver

[RolandH]

Hi to All,

I don't like the idea of a closed thread.
I give you all an example
http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0xa47819434a69d711abdc0090277a778c,00.html

If you read that thread, do you agree with me that James and I should earn 10 point for that answer, too!

What I will say with that - sometimes many ways bring you to a solution and sometime the others answers are better ones.

But I will give you all another example how the etiquettes are disregards.

http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0xac2c63f96280d711abdc0090277a778c,00.html

Because the user is new in the forum and what I think - give this people only a hint that we have etiquettes and they will understand.

We are a FORUM and a forum discuss about solutions - we are NOT a second support line from HP. " OK - Problem solved - close the call"

The point system is a goody. Nothing more and noting less.

But where I absolutely agree if the asker has solved the problem he should answer to the forum how he solved it.
- Was it the answer from one user (10 points)?
- Was it a combination of many answers(8-10 Points).
etc etc etc ...

So we need all the echo of the asker, because "this is our profit what we get out of this forum - we learn from the experience what others had made before"
So at the end WE ARE NOT HEWLETT-PACKARD. We all do not INVENT - WE KNOW !!!

Regards
Roland

[David_246]

HI Shannon,

I'dd like to jump in on this.
Sometimes people think that a thread is closed, but as an example; I found out some interesting issues for ssh and added them to a finished thread.
In this case you don't like the thread to be closed, you still need the ability to add comments even after a year.

About the points, I think you always need to assign points, even if someone posted the same message twice. Rate the message you think it's worth it and rate the dupplicate as "0". In this case no arguments can ever come about assigning points. I think it is so frustrated when you try to help people and they don't even say thanks or assign you points.

About the 10-pointers, I now and then give multiple 10-points to a thread as there are multiple ways of getting to the same solution. I'dd like to know all of the solutions as each one might be handy in a different curcomstance.

So, no I do not completely agree about your statement. I do agree that we should be aware of people that help us and people that just want to earn another ten points with someone elses answer.

Good thread to open these discussions !! Thanks.

Regs David

[Paula J Frazer-Campbell]

Good Morning

Roland has a very good point: -

"We are a FORUM and a forum discuss about solutions - we are NOT a second support line from HP. " OK - Problem solved - close the call""


I wonder how much money HP has saved by having all this FREE expertise available?

What ever happened to the gifts HP used to give out when you attained a particular level?


Back on subject: -

I agree with a closed option but not stopping the ability to post to that question, in that I have seen posts where 8-10 points were assigned (bunny popped up) and the poster then came back saying that that particular solution had not fully solved their problem.

I love the challenge of the forum and follow many posts to learn - which I am sure we all do.




Paula

[Khalid A. Al-Tayaran]

Hi,

I agree. A person should let the members know if his problem is solved or not. We don't unknown cases.....

Shannon, there is another reasone for this. It is not right to say it here.. I think.

[John Meissner]

I think the idea of closing a thread is a simultaneously a good and bad idea.

good - It will let people know that this issue is solved and will 1. stop the need for the owner of the thread to come back and assign 0 points to posts. and 2 - will let everyone know that this worked. If someone else has a similar problem and they follow these step, they might solve their problem. If it doesn't solve their problem then start a new thread.

bad - several times I've had to use several posters suggestions to solve a problem. If after 10 points is assigned by the owner, the system automatically assigns zero... that would be bad bacause if that persons suggestion helped... the 10 points for their answer would be lost.

I think that the user should be able to close out their thread and make it unwriteable.

Also - on a side note - the user requesting points be assigned.... did they mean 10 points (for a similiar answer that could solve the problem .... or did they mean 0 just to keep ther % at 100%?????

[Vicente Sanchez_3]

I think that close a thread is not good.

This is a Forum, and new opinions, can be posted days after the solution is suggested and applied.

But, I agree that 10 points must be assigned to only one post. The Magic Answer !!!.

Regards, Vicente.

[John Meissner]

what do you assign to an answer if it takes 3 combined posts to fix the problem?

[RolandH]

Vincente I think that is a solution I can live with.
Only ONE MAGIC ANSWER - ONLY ONE TIME 10 POINTS.
But I think the user must have further the possibility to give more times than one, 9 points or less.

2) Would'nt it be nice if you have a link in your profile where you can see threads you have not assigned all answers points.
Let me explain why.
The link in the profile shows all questions ever made. You can't see in which thread there are answers you have not assigned points.
Why this? Point are the salt in the soup. It is the motivation/compition what we (or all love) and need. Has everyone of you thout about, where this forum would be, if HP has not giving this motivating factor ?!
Do you think it will be so big. I don't think so.
I think some or lot need this litle motivation ( me included ).
1. Answer has more quality.
2. Without this motivation for this people we LOST knowledge for this forum
consequently
3. You get continousness in this forum.
People come back again and again.

Make that sense to you all ?

Roland


BTW: Shannon can you assign 0 Point to us all here in the thread, please. The statistic in your profile looks terrible ;-}}

[Patrick Wallek]

Two quick comments:

1) I am definitely in favor of an option to close a thread. If, as a question author, I get the information I need and it solves my problem, and I assign the points, I don't want to have to worry about someone resurrecting that question.

2) I am NOT in favor of allowing only 1 10-point answer per question. Assigning points is arbitrary and up to each poster. If they want to assign 10 points to every answer, that is their prerogative. It may not be the way the use of the points system was intended, but there's not a whole lot we can do about that.


Yes, the system we have may be flawed, but it is what we currently have to work with so let's make the best of it!!!!

[John Meissner]

Well said Patrick

[Frank Slootweg]

Patrick (and others),

I do not agree with having a 'close thread' option, *unless* there is also a 're-open thread' option. Why?

Under the current guidelines a 10 implicitly signifies a close and often even people specifically say the problem is solved, but still, as many others have said, threads are often continued, by the *original* Question Author, because, in hindsight, the problem is *not* solved and the thread has to continue.

I think that if the QA just *says* that the problem is solved, (s)he can just 'leave' the thread if (s)he wants. If still others continue it, then, IMO, the original QA is not 'responsible' (if (s)he ever was) for reading/responding/assigning_points.

So bottom line:

I don't think we need any additional functionality, we just need common sense, common courtesy, etc., but/and, as has been said so many times, you can only *hope* for that, but you can not *force* it in any way, i.e. also not programatically, at least not without creating other problems.

Well, that's enough of my 'late' Friday rambling.

[NightHawk_1]

I noticed the point mongers after my first 2 posts here. I just give them 0 if I feel they are just trying to jump on the bandwagon. But there has been either additionally information or a different type of info given that I have appreciated very much so I do assign points to those people. I also do not feel that a thread should automatically be closed out after a 10 score has been added just for the above reason. I would very much like a way to close out a thread. Don't know about the dead bunny symbol, maybe something else like a small black blub.

[doug hosking]

There are many overlapping issues here.

How long can you reasonably expect question authors to assign points? In general, it seems reasonable to say 'at least until they get a good answer and acknowledge that it solved their problem.'

Ignoring points for a second, I think it's important to consider that the world continues to change, and that there may be NEW 'best answers' over time because of that. There may also be multiple 'best answers' on any given day depending on the circumstances.

Using a recent example, a thread asked, "Does HP support XXX?" The correct and posted answer at the time was "no." It was clear that this disappointed many people. Points were assigned to the correct answer. A few months later, HP introduced new functionality that changed the answer from "no" to "yes." At that point, before someone from HP could update the old thread, someone from outside HP replied with a helpful link to the web site where the newly available functionality could be downloaded from. Judging by the followup replies, it was clear that people appreciated the note.

I belive such new, useful information is worthy of points, even in a thread that has been 'closed' for months or years, both because the original poster may still be interested in it and because there may be other people searching the forums for answers to the previously asked questions. New people care about the correct answer today, not what was correct in 1999. We should structure the forums to permit and encourage such updating.

In other cases, I've seen correct answers that had bunnies, then followed up to say, "Mary's reply is right on target, but be aware that can happen if you " Closing a thread might make it impossible to add this type of information. Similarly, a new product announcement might make it much more cost effective to use a different solution that wasn't available at the time of the original question.

Because of things like this, I'm not in favor of closing threads except in cases of blatant abuse. We want to encourage, not discourage, useful replies, even if they're 'late.'

Is it reasonable to expect points to be assigned years later? No. Is it proper to assign them later if you happen to notice later that there's been an additional contribution of merit? Sure. Even if the new answer doesn't help you directly, it probably helped someone. Why not acknowledge that?

If any changes are made to the system, I'd suggest something like not "dinging" people for not assigning points to replies made more than N days after the original request.

Re 'points mongers' I think we see the full spectrum, from those who would donate hundreds or thousands of hours of their time just because they're generous and/or like the challenge, to those who would try to reach royalty the cheapest way possible (doing nothing but adding 'me too' to every congratulatory thread, for example)

We're never going to get a perfect points system, and I really don't worry much about that. Encouraging people to assign points appropriately is helpful. Becoming obsessed with points or begging for them is not.

Despite the flaws in the points system, the forums in general are a great success overall. We clearly don't want to let any quest for 'fairness' impede that success.

[Michael Steele_2]

Wanted to make a quick comment about the forum not being a second support line or an equivalent to the response center.

During these changes times within HP I see more and more HP clients opting out of HP support for cheaper alternatives.

I personally know of a third party support company in the US who's taking over support of hundreds of PA RISC systems for a large telecomm because its the telecomm's only alternative since they're struggling and can't afford to pay for HP support.

Consequently, their presence is here, on the ITRC user forum.

And since this is an HP website which is controlled and managed by HP, (* not the guests who post questions and solutions, like all of us *) what is to prevent HP from closing off this source of competition to their business?