Operating System - OpenVMS

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

 
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BrianT_1
Regular Advisor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

IM> if you emailed openvms.programs at hp
IM> then they may assist. The people who
IM> read those emails are already aware of
IM> this thread.

Then what more is there to do? They know the problem and they know the solution. What more could I possibly add?
Jon Pinkley
Honored Contributor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

BT>The two 7730s have DEMFAs in them already, but my company's
BT>networking group is forcing me to disconnect them and revert
BT>to the DEMNAs because the FDDI switch to which they had been
BT>connect is not a managed switch and can't be placed on a
BT>separate VLAN. They will not replace the switch with another
BT>FDDI switch that could be managed because it wouldn't be
BT>"standard", so they're turning it off.

Do you have a PCI based FDDI card that will work in the Alpha (DEFPA)?

We used to have a thee node cluster (two ES40's and a AS2000) that used a FDDI in addition to 10BaseT Ethernet. The FDDI was "switchless", just two counter rotating rings between the 3 nodes (so every node could directly see both other nodes). So an FDDI switch isn't a requirement. But if you don't have a switch, and two nodes only, when you shutdown one of the nodes, and if you have DECnet running on the FDDI link, you will start to get adjacency down messages.

If the network group is abandoning the FDDI switch, can you just grab it for use as a dedicated private switch used only for the VMS nodes? As long as it isn't connected to anything else in the network, the networking group shouldn't be concerned.

Adding a DEFPA to the AS1000 would probably be the cheapest way to get a 100Mb SCS connection between the Alpha and the VAXes. I am not sure about the VAX, but for Alphas (7.x) , if the NISCS_MAX_PKTSZ was set to the FDDI size, then the FDDI would be used preferentially over the Ethernet, and for bulk data like backups, I would expect the larger packet size to be an advantage.

I hope that a patched version of the VAX backup is released. HP, that's the "right thing to do". It should have been done at the same time the patch was released for the Alpha.

Suggestion for HP, create a patch, have Brian be your beta tester, and then release the patch.

Jon
it depends
BrianT_1
Regular Advisor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

JP> Do you have a PCI based FDDI card that
JP> will work in the Alpha (DEFPA)?

The Alpha already has a DEFPA in it, but as I said already, the networking group is decomissioning the fiber switch. That's why I had to revert to the 10Mb card and asked about the 100Mb twisted pair card. I can get a DE500-AA for $50.00 at Great Lakes Computers just up the street, so I'll replace the existing 10 Mb Ethernet card with that.

JP> I hope that a patched version of the VAX
JP> backup is released. HP, that's
JP> the "right thing to do". It should have
JP> been done at the same time the patch was
JP> released for the Alpha.
JP>
JP> Suggestion for HP, create a patch, have JP> Brian be your beta tester, and then
JP> release the patch.

That's what I think should be done also.
Jon Pinkley
Honored Contributor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

BT>I can get a DE500-AA for $50.00 at Great Lakes Computers
BT>just up the street, so I'll replace the existing 10 Mb
BT>Ethernet card with that.

Adding a DE500-AA to the AS1000 4/233 is a good idea, since the Alpha will have its capabilities improved.

However, I don't see how doing that is going to improve the performance of the SCS traffic between the VAX and the Alpha, because the VAX is limited to 10Mb with the DEMNA. What am I not understanding?

Jon
it depends
BrianT_1
Regular Advisor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

JP> However, I don't see how doing that is
JP> going to improve the performance of the
JP> SCS traffic between the VAX and the
JP> Alpha, because the VAX is limited to
JP> 10Mb with the DEMNA. What am I not
JP> understanding?

You're not missing anything. I'm going to price the Nemonix XMI add-in boards. I don't know if DEC/Compaq/HP had a 100Mb card for the VMI bus.
Jon Pinkley
Honored Contributor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

BT>They will not replace the switch with another FDDI switch
BT>that could be managed because it wouldn't be "standard",
BT>so they're turning it off.

Was this leased equipment, or it the switch just going to be thrown away?

If it is going to be thrown out, why can't you just mount it in one of the VAX 7730 cabinets, and run fiber patch cords to the DEMFAs and the DEFPA and just make it a dedicated cluster interconnect, with no connection to any network? Then it would be invisible to the networking group, and would just be "part of the Cluster hardware". The networking group didn't control your CI cables and HSJ/HSC did they? Just call it an FDDI star coupler.

Jon
it depends
Shriniketan Bhagwat
Trusted Contributor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

Hi Brian,

As Ian Miller said, please send an email to openvms.programs@hp.com regarding this issue. You may get some useful assistance.

Regards,
Ketan
BrianT_1
Regular Advisor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

SB> As Ian Miller said, please send an email
SB> to openvms.programs@hp.com regarding
SB> this issue. You may get some useful
SB> assistance.

Why be so secretive? If the people monitoring that address are aware of the problem and can be of assistance, why don't they just say so publically here and help everyone who may have this problem?

I've written as you suggest, but I'd rather have the conversation in public.
Robert Brooks_1
Honored Contributor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

Why be so secretive? If the people monitoring that address are aware of the problem and can be of assistance, why don't they just say so publically here and help everyone who may have this problem?

--

For the same reason that we ask folks who have a support contract to formally log a call. Like it or not, "management likes to track and quantify various issues, and the requested email is effectively a less formal way of logging a call that's offered as a courtesy for folks without contracts.

Yeah, I "get it" that we should want to fix all bugs, independent of how they're discovered and reported, but that's how we're asked to play the game.

-- Rob (who is using the "royal we" as a HP'er, but not a member of VMS engineering)
BrianT_1
Regular Advisor

Re: %BACKUP-F-CLUSTER, unsuitable cluster factor redux

I wanted to bring this thread to a close. Back in July of 2010, I received from HP a zip file containing a version of BACKUP and BACKUPSHR that purported to fix the problem of restoring an IMAGE backup of a disk whose BITMAP.SYS was larger than 255 blocks. I had installed those BACKUP images and used them in the course of our normal backup procedures, but because I had no spare disks of sufficient size as to test the ability to restore the image backups, the fix went untested.

Because we're in the process of implementing Charon-VAX, I was able to create two extra disks that were each the same size as my RAIDed RZ1DFs (28 GB). I made an IMAGE backup of a production disk and put the saveset on the first of these large disks. I then attempted to restore that saveset to the second large disk. BACKUP displayed an informational messages that said the disk wasn't usable in V7.2 or earlier of VMS and then proceeded to initialize the large disk with the same values as the source disk and restore the saveset. Needless to say, I'm DELIGHTED! I offer profuse thanks to the people at HP who worked at correcting this bug in BACKUP and encourage HP to make this patch available to all customers who use VAX (and VAX emulations) and run OpenVMS 7.3 on them.

I also offer thanks to all the people who helped in this thread and especially to those who were able to examine the BACKUP source and find the true cause of the issue.