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01-09-2009 12:18 AM
01-09-2009 12:18 AM
Tape drive scsi problems
Thanks for the help in my last post about the broken tape drive.
Now it's acting up again but this time with another type of error, it seems that it is actually working properly this time.
During the holidays the tape drive worked for the better part. But when I got back to work it started reporting device timeout errors.
To explain a bit more, when I run "mount /for mke500:" it reports that medium is offline and then just prints out "%MOUNT-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout". After that it just says the error message directly when (within 1 second) I execute mount.
I've tried rebooting the machine in hopes that it would solve something, but when I did it didn't even show up as a device. After some work I got it working again, but it seemed more like a coincidence than a solution. I've also tried changing the scsi channel which worked for about 2 hours and then just gave up with the same result.
In my logic reasoning this could be 1 of 3 things,
1) scsi cable is broken?
2) scsi card is broken? (Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI)
3) the tape drive is broken, this is unlikely thou... since I got it to work fine for periods of time before the timeout errors occured.
Is there something more usual than this or am I on the right track?
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-09-2009 04:45 AM
01-09-2009 04:45 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
If SYSMAN IO AUTOCONFIGURE (or a reboot)
does not detect the device now (but did
before), then you would seem to have some bad
hardware somewhere in the chain.
> [...] this is unlikely thou[gh]... [...]
Working things can fail. (Often, it's
exactly the working things which do fail.)
Replacing things other than the (new) tape
drive would certainly be a reasonable way to
start, however. What is the system here?
SCSI cables and old Qlogic PCI SCSI cards are
normally pretty easy to find for close to no
money.
> [...] my last post [...]
Including an URL would make that easier to
find. (For best results, leave out the XX in
"forumsXX.itrc.hp.com", and any "admit=X+Y+Z"
segment in the query string.)
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01-09-2009 05:34 AM
01-09-2009 05:34 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
(http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1295322)
It's an OpenVMS 7.3-2. I might've gotten a hold of a proper scsi cable, but probably wont be available until monday to try it out.
I know that "working" hardware could malfunction in wierd ways, and it is a possibility since we just got a "new" one from HP just before christmas.
I'd rather like that it's just a scsi cable problem, mostly because that would be the simplest fix ;P
running $ MC SYSMAN IO AUTO /LOG works fine until it starts reporting device timeout and then it just can't detect it.
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-09-2009 11:32 AM
01-09-2009 11:32 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
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01-09-2009 08:06 PM
01-09-2009 08:06 PM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Also be careful about punctuation (your trailing ")"), better to use a line by itself.
http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1295322
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01-13-2009 12:11 AM
01-13-2009 12:11 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
In addition to your suspect list don't overlook the terminator.
It could be the enclosure p/s as the older table-top supplies had a high failure history.
Turn off the enclosure for a while then power up and retry, if you can connect then most likely the p/s is failing when hot.
Just a thought.
HTH,
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01-13-2009 12:25 AM
01-13-2009 12:25 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
You're correct, they didn't change the enclosure, just the internal bits.
I haven't checked the terminator so you could be correct. But it's somewhat like you describe it.
If I turn it off for a while it does reconnect and work again. I've noticed this not directly in the way you described it, but it has usually started working when I've tried to disconnect and reconnect the scsi cable, which might give it sufficient time to cool down i guess.
But it's wierd... I've had it running for several hours before it stops responding with device timeout errors. Even when I've only stopped it for like 2 minutes.
I haven't checked yet, but I moved it to another ES40 machine yesterday around 1pm and it was working when I went home around 5pm. Hopefully (simplest solution actually) is that it doesn't work and that it's causing these issues.
If it does work, in my reasoning, there can be 2 error sources. Either my OpenVMS installation is doing this or the SCSI card is broken.
Replacing the SCSI card isn't much of an issue, but if it's operationsystem problems then I need to find some other temporary solution since these machines are to be shutdown within 6 months.
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-13-2009 08:24 AM
01-13-2009 08:24 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
I'll bet my Carlsberg on the power supply being 'noisy'.
;-)
HTH,
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01-17-2009 12:04 AM
01-17-2009 12:04 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
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01-17-2009 10:09 AM
01-17-2009 10:09 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
There are standards for all sorts of things to do with SCSI, too. Some of which sort-of match reality. (The best part of working with storage standards is that there are so many to choose from.)
The quote from Smart Reseller magazine over at that cited web site aside, the SMART monitoring (for disks) has been found to detect and report only a surprisingly small fraction of disk device failures. Prior to catastrophic failure, that is. SMART simply isn't a reliable predictor of failure, based on some large-scale empirical studies from folks at CMU and Google.
As for tools, here's some open source that might well be (reasonably) portable:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/smartmontools/
The ioctl() code that's very likely included (I haven't looked at the source code) would need to be switched over to IO$_DIAGNOSE calls to send the SCSI command packets, etc.
With OpenVMS and the specific device timeout case, that's already a failure somewhere in the chain. SMART and related tools likely won't help all that much. HP SIM / HP SEA / WBEM+WEBES / whateverthisstuffiscallednow might be worth a look. But I'd start swapping some SCSI parts here first, and see if or where the bug moved to. That's simpler.
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01-17-2009 11:11 AM
01-17-2009 11:11 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
i would tend to agree with hoff about narrowing it down physically - you won't get the sort of info you are after from hp sim or webes, even though hp sim contains a lot of tape info mib wise it's not comprehensive.
HTH
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01-17-2009 11:13 AM
01-17-2009 11:13 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
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01-17-2009 11:15 AM
01-17-2009 11:15 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?pnameOID=406731&locale=en_US&taskId=135&prodSeriesId=406729&prodTypeId=12169
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01-19-2009 02:38 AM
01-19-2009 02:38 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
For more information on LTT and to download it see www.hp.com/support/tapetools
Purely Personal Opinion
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01-19-2009 04:06 AM
01-19-2009 04:06 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
I've tried running LTT on HP's request but it seems I'm missing LIBHBAAPI.EXE and it won't start. I've sent it back to them but they haven't answered yet.
I'm starting to lean more towards the theory about the chassi being bonkers. I've moved the tapedrive to the other machine in our cluster and it displays the same kind of error (Device timeout) after a couple of hours. There is no rescue from it except for rebooting the tapedrive (mostly it just needs a couple of minutes to get it's act together again)
Best Regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-19-2009 06:54 AM
01-19-2009 06:54 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Install the latest fibrescsi patchkit. It should include this library.
Jur.
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01-19-2009 08:07 AM
01-19-2009 08:07 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Do you have ability to attach the tape to another O/S?
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01-19-2009 11:14 AM
01-19-2009 11:14 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Since it's following the external tape sub-system to the other system, I suggest you swap out the external tape enclosure or replace it's power supply. A very common problem with these units.
Regards,
Let me know what the outcome is as I have a Carlsberg waiting on ice! ;-)
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01-22-2009 12:43 AM
01-22-2009 12:43 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Jur, I would install if, if I knew where to find it. We currently don't have anything connected to these machines over FC. SAN and tapedrivers use SCSI interfaces only.
David, I currently don't have the possibility to connect it to another OS.
cnb, I'll get back to you when HP finally gets a move on. At the moment we're still stuck in the "we-want-information-you-cannot-give-us" loop and I'm just waiting for them to get back to me so I can tell them to send out a tech guy and fix it :P
(ps. They didn't really accept the situation when I told em that both my (previously working) alpha machines presents the same symptoms when connecting the tape driver ds.)
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-22-2009 12:56 AM
01-22-2009 12:56 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-2/VMS732_FIBRE_SCSI-V1500.ZIPEXE
Jur.
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01-27-2009 12:24 AM
01-27-2009 12:24 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
I'll get back to ya'll when we've solved that confusion :)
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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01-27-2009 05:39 AM
01-27-2009 05:39 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
The url for the manual is: http://www.santools.com/smart/unix/manual
and the software also has tapealert capability, along with ability to look at log pages, and even script something so you can watch for errors/warnings and set up some trigger during I/O.
You can get contact info from the website
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01-27-2009 06:03 AM
01-27-2009 06:03 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
You need be very careful with that word. Very careful. It's loaded.
In classic OpenVMS terminology, "supported" had very specific meaning. Likely still has it, too.
The word "supported" does not mean "it works". To the software folks, that word means "it works and we'll fix the code or replace the drive if it doesn't." It's that latter part of the definition that causes care around use of that word.
The DEC DLT series was typically not supported by OpenVMS. The DLT drives were platform-generic drives intended for OEMs. For details on what is supported, check the AlphaServer support matrix for your widget, and the device specs, and the OpenVMS SPD.
The TZ-series equivalent was supported. At various points in history, these TZ-series drives were based on the DLT series drive kernels.
HP is correct. The DLT7000 is not AFAIK supported.
The question is "will it work", and the answer to that is usually "yes", so long as you're patched to current and you're running V6.2 or later, and later is better.
If you're going to work with SCSI and particularly with SCSI device integration and testing (for drives that are not "supported"), you have to know how SCSI works. And how to troubleshoot the SCSI bus. This is at the core of why there's a specific interpretation of "supported"; the device firmware and host drivers can and do vary, and there can be oddities.
The same holds with ATA and ATAPI devices.
These devices are not as compatible as we might all want. (And "compatible" is industry code for "different". If the device was truly identical, it would be called "identical" and not "compatible". And the definition of "compatible" is nebulous at best.
Here, do some basic SCSI troubleshooting. Check the bus length and bus under- or over-termination, correct addresses, and start swapping parts, and do definitely double-check the termination. If you're doing SCSI device integration and testing work, you have to know how SCSI works. Or you'll learn how over time.
Or get some help in to have a look at this.
Here, I'd verify the bus configuration and integrity, and then swap the drive. I'd see if the problem moved with the drive, or stayed with the bus. (I have a DLT8000 around that I use for this sort of testing, as well as some supported TZ drives.)
Part of the reason why supported drives are more expensive is because specific configurations have been tested and are known to work; the drives are part of the host software and I/O controller compatibility test matrix. And because the vendor will swap bad drives or will fix bad software.
Stephen Hoffman
HoffmanLabs LLC
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01-27-2009 06:14 AM
01-27-2009 06:14 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
Well I do know the diffrence between "supported" and that it works.
But HP's response was all of a sudden that it wasn't _supported_ and the case is now closed. There was no problems right before christmas when they came the first time to replace the tape drives internal bits (because of a stuck tape).
I did describe it very shortly... the thing is (atleast as me and my boss read it) that they told us that our support deal is not a valid configuration (anymore?) if we run OpenVMS on the Alpha servers or if we run it with that tape drive.
But I don't know anything until thursday when I'm back at work and hopefully my boss has solved this mess :)
And my method is similiar to yours when it comes to testing which one is in error... I moved it to an identical Alpha server and it still does the same as earlier (I've written this abit up in the thread).
Anyway, I'll tell you all when this is solved... Either by HP or by us buying a shelfed one ourselfs.
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson
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02-09-2009 12:50 AM
02-09-2009 12:50 AM
Re: Tape drive scsi problems
They didn't change the power supply thou, only the actual tapedrive since the new powersupply they brought didn't fit into the old powersupplybox.
Anyway, thanks again for your insight :)
Best regards
Fredrik Eriksson