PLEASE UPDATE FORUMS ETIQUETTE

[Jeff Schussele]

My hat's off to you Wodisch, my friend.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The prods for points are inane, at best, if not accompanied by some *actual* input to the question posed. And I certainly do not like, one bit, the suggestions to ignore questions from users who don't assign. That's not what we're here for & is certainly not in the spirit of our community.

I was just going to ignore this post until you summed up the way I was feeling.

Now can we PLEASE just get on with the task at hand - dissemination of knowledge?

My $0.02,
Jeff

[Steven E. Protter]

There were several points that went on in the post.

I don't blame Harry at all for pointing out the poster had previous asked the same question and had it answered.

The ettiquette document clearly notes that you should do a search prior to posting a question. It takes five seconds or less and solves the problem quicker, 'cause you don't have to wait for the answer.

It is most annoying to do research to help someone with their problem(I know I frequently attach docs or links when I can find them) and not even get a thank you.

I like getting points, I don't know whether its macho or not. When a guy collects 30,000 points, that means he's helped his peers solve plenty of problems.

I have some stock answers to certain problems, such as how to replace Berkely rlogin protocols or sendmail diagnotics, or oracle advice. When I see someone post the same question already answered, I don't bother running a search for old posts. I give them the information and let them figure out for themselves that they could have gotten an answer faster by running a search.

I beat the security drum and don't mind getting points for that either. I know people that have had HP-UX boxes hacked even behind firewalls. I like helping people avoid that fate.

The reason Harry probably made his post was not only did the person posting show intellectual laziness by not looking at his own back posts, but he's kind of ungrateful for the help he gets.

When you get notification on a itrc post take the time to read the message you get, as I did today.


When you return to view the answers, you'll have the ability to rate (on a scale of 1-10) each response you have received. Simply login and click the 'Assign Points' button next to each response. Please use the following scale when rating each response:
N/A: The answer was simply a point of clarification to my original question
1- 3: The answer didn't really help answer my question but thanks for your assistance!
4- 7: The answer helped with a portion of my question, but I still need some additional help.
8-10: The answer has solved my problem completely! Now I'm a happy camper!

** WHY SHOULD I DO THIS?: In short, here are 3 reasons why we feel this is such an important feature of Forums at the IT Resource Center and that it's worth a few moments of your time:
a.) Others have taken time out to help you, so please take a moment to give them credit for the assistance they have provided.
b.) Your rating will not only help your peers earn points toward their Forums status, but will validate the quality of the solution you've received.
c.) Other readers will therefore be able understand which answer best helped solve a problem, thereby making the community knowledge being shared here that much richer.

Whats the problem here?

The poster that got on Harry's nerves got good advice from myself and other and didn't even bother to say thank you. That can be irritating.

I sometime post a joke and expect nothing for that. I sometimes ask a related question that doesn't help and expect nothing for that. Did that today, because I wanted to learn something.

Can dmesg be useful in diagnosing a memory problem? I wanted to know, I've been lucky, neer had a memory problem.

Am I fishing for points? No.

Do I like getting them? Yes.

A final note is if I see 10 juicy questions I can help with, I'm going to take the time to help posters that hand out points first. I'd like to help everyone, but my two year old needs me too, time is limited.

In order to get help faster, I give points for ANY answer. You don't get 8-10 poinits unless you totally nail and solve the problem. That's kind of what the guidelines say right?

Lots of long windedness in my fingers today.

No points for this please.

Whew!

Take a breath.

Steve

[V. Nyga]

Hi Wodisch,

a 'points please' after (every?) answer is also obstruse and repelling.
'Fishing/Begging for points!'
First I assume everybody will give points. If I see later, that someone maybe didn't understand the point system I try (sometimes) to give him/her a tip.
So here is my proposal:
http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0xa5ac4a988422d711abdc0090277a778c,00.html

Short version:
'Hi xxx,
you should close your question!!
(.. by giving points!)
Regards
Volkmar'

Regards
V

[H.Merijn Brand (procura]

*IF* I remind someone to asign points, it's mostly after the longer (pointless) threads that end with:

"Thanks all, the solution from ... helped. Now all works fine"

with a reply like

"Thank those answers with some points"

[Pete Randall]

And what's the point of flaming people here? I find this every bit as annoying
as point reminders in threads.

There's nothing wrong with a "polite" reminder about assigning points. Sure
there are "policy reminders *splattered* all over the place" as Frank pointed
out. However, this doesn't take into account how people actually surf. My
wife is pursuing her Master's degree in Internet Engineering and we had a
discussion recently about one of her course texts, "Don't Make Me Think"
by Steve Krug ( http://www.stevekrug.com/chapter.html - it's really worth a
read!). It's about how to design truly functional, usable web pages.

The author's studies conclude that people do not read or study pages, they scan
them. They don't analyze the data and make the "best" choice, they scan and
formulate the most reasonable choice, they "satisfice" (check the above link for
a definition). The fact is, many forum users just don't notice these *splattered*
reminders and the most effective method is to post something *politely* in
response to their question. Once should be enough, but the repeated reminders in
this thread just support the point that people don't read the whole page.


Frankly, if you don't like these reminders and consider them spam, don't read them.
You can skip right over them, you know - after all, most people don't read the whole
page anyway, why should you? As Rita said, "...The only person you can
change is you. The only action you can mandate is yours..."

Peace

[harry d brown jr]

Funny how a person can be so wishy-washy, found in this thread: http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0x96b70bce6f33d6118fff0090279cd0f9,00.html

***************************
May 22, 2002 14:20 PM GMT [ 5 pts ]
I always find these threads invigorating, yet frustrating. While Im not here often, I am here as often as I can to help mentor.

Why frustrating? Because the same 40-50 regulars read these threads, and the new people do not.

It is quite a let-down to see people respond "great, you fixe my problem", and assign noone any points. I however expect that (sadly), and keep a name list of "who's question dont I answer"! :-)

Why invigorationg? Because new ideas come out to ensure points awards.

I like the idea of assigning points being required to post next question!

Just my 1.2cents(inflation)

regards,
Shannon
***************************

Now, which way is it Shannon?

It's funny how someone think that their horse is taller than another???s. It's my belief that it???s not how high you sit in the saddle, it's how you ride the pony! I really don't care for your philosophical ideology, because I'm able to think for myself, thank you. There is nothing wrong about competition, because without competition we become mere rocks on the face of this earth. The liberals, and I mean the wayward political leftists, want people to believe that people shouldn???t compete against each other. Liberals think that what one works for, should be shared with those that didn???t work for it. That???s what I call THEFT. And no, I???m not the first person to call it that. So when someone abuses the forums by posting questions and then doesn???t bother to assign a thanks to the work that was provided for them, then that???s what I call THEFT. Can you imagine the world where man doesn???t compete against man, the environment, and the universe? We wouldn???t have Dr Salk and the polio vaccine! Hell, we wouldn???t have a lot of things, and we sure as hell wouldn???t have computers! Thankfully we had Mr. Hewlett and Mr. Packard that didn???t share the ignorant ideology that man shouldn???t be competitive. Think about the number of people that would be DEAD today because their (H&P's) medical equipment wasn???t available in Hospitals, OH that???s right we shouldn???t have hospitals ??? it???s competitive against whatever.

Shannon, if you think you can change me, you???re WRONG, so get a grip of reality, because that???s just the way it is going to be. See, you don???t KNOW me, and don???t pretend that you do. And don???t think that you think you know what I am like, because you???d probably be mistaken. I???m usually first to admit that I???m wrong, and I can accept being wrong, because that???s what makes me strive to be better ??? learning from one???s mistakes.

I respect your computer knowledge and your answers to people???s computer issues, and I especially enjoyed your reposting of your piece on system security ??? a Job WELL done! I couldn???t even add anything to the mix because you had said it all so well!! We can either agree to disagree on the supposed ???spamming??? and leave it at that or whatever else.

live free or die
harry

http://www.state.nh.us/nhinfo/emblem.html

[Shannon Petry]

Harry,

I respect your rights to answer or not answer questions. Based on any criteria you wish. You have never, nor will never say "you must answer a question".

I am usually able to overlook the "dont forget to assign points" and "points please" in messages. I normally do not see 3 of these in the same thread, and again the proverbial "icing on the cake" was Ravi's response which in essense said to not give answers.

Do you think that this should be the way the forums work? Seriously I want to know!

Now to address one thing I read in your writings...

"So when someone abuses the forums by posting questions and then doesn???t bother to assign a thanks to the work that was provided for them, then that???s what I call THEFT."


The forums are FREE. There is no possible way to have a theft of FREE goods. There is no way to abuse giving away free information, other than destroying that information so that others can not have it.


Your right, I cant change you. I cant change your opinions or philosophy.

I can however point out that the forums do not benefit from certain behaviors. I can also point out that these types of behaviors are destructive to free services. I can also ask that the rules for abuse be applied both ways.


As to your comments about Paula's thread:

Like you, I would "like" to receive points, as would we all. It does not make me wishy-washy as I dont believe that I "have" to have points. I understand that the forums are FREE. Noone can steal from me what I do not freely give.

Point me to the post where I have replied with anything even close to a point begging. Point me to a thread where I have discouraged members from answering.

And yes the replies with just
"Cheung,

You should take care of this:

This member has assigned points to 98 of 186 responses to his/her questions.

You can find your previous posts in your profile:

http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/TopSolutions/1,,CA877098!1!questions,00.html

It's pathetic that you have to be continously reminded!

live free or die
harry "

are just as discouraging as


"Hi, guys

Think twice before answering this guy posting.
I never seen this guy assigning point"


When you can show me threads where I make these kind of statements then you can call me wishy-washy, or better a hypocrite.


Regards,
Shannon

[Tom Jackson]

Hi:

I agree it's spam, but so what!? Giving points is a FUN and nice thing to do. It's also fun getting them.

Some people either don't care, think it's stupid, or are ignorant.

I am competitive. But I'm not always correct, or the fastest, or the most complete. So what!? I like what I am and what I've accomplished.

If you do a good job, if you help people, you will eventually get your reward. Even friendly reminders are in my opinion a waste of time and effort.

I agree with the people that spam, but it doesn't do any good. People don't assign points for a reason. Who cares why. Have fun with the points you get.

btw: nice Harry! I love bringing politics into everything. If the libs took control of the forum, you know there would be no points, no right or wrong answers. Everything would be brought to the lowest common denominator. That or people with the most points would have to give to others with little or no points so they could maintain their self esteme.

I say: stay fired up, answer those questions, and keep moving ahead!

I know I'm getting off topic, but one final note. Since points are a form of compensation and help direct searchers to the correct posts and responses, maybe the forum (Dan?) should take responsibility for this issue. My idea would be to put progressive hats on point violators. Maybe a black hat for minor offendors, a dunce cap for medium and devil horns for the worst offendors.

I hope I didn't offend anybody. Just having fun at the forum.

Tom ;)

[harry d brown jr]

As to my pasting your previous comment, I was merely pointing out the fact that you were also disconcerted with those that don't play with good sportsmanship, yet you complain about those that point out the "rule violations".

Free? If I remember correctly we pay a maintenance contract to HP and we purchase HP equipment, so if they (HP) provide a service that appears to be free its actually costing the share holders money. Yes, it reduces the number of calls to HP for support, but it still has a cost associated with it.

The air we breathe is free (because they haven't figured out how to tax it yet :-)), yet it can be stolen from us by polluters. http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~in7504/intellectual_property.htm

My company provides us coffee at no direct charge, but if I were to take coffee packets home, that would be theft, yet I can make a pot of coffee and drink the whole pot. An analogy from my wife.


live free or die
harry

[Bill McNAMARA_1]

Hello all,
I tend to agree with Shannon and reckon that the the quest for point does become a bit ridiculous at times... we're all grown ups here and shouldn't be fighting over marbles any more.

On the other hand, I've been guilty before of thread spamming, and from the other point of view, certain people really do spend a heck of a lot of time "for free" here. (it's not just the itrc forums very existance thats free - it's the public support that is free - the point seekers and the genuine charitable - and it is sure that quality would lessen should some set homepages elsewhere.)

Given that points is the only reward for forum participation, I think that this little appreciation is due and to be expected.

Perhaps hp moderators could assign the missing points. Afterall it is the 10 point answers that identify the fix, all posts unassigned is also bordering on unaccountable spam.

Behave,
Bill

[fg_1]

Hi everyone, sorry hope im not too late to get an opinion here.

As someone who ask more questions than I answer I agree with the idea of assigning points to people who take time out of their busy schedules (AND WE ALL HAVE THOSE) day in and day out to share the knowledge that they have amassed over the years.

With that being said, I agree with alot of what is being said here and what I am most discouraged about is that there was actually a person who posted a reply to someone's thread not to answer their question because they haven't been assigning points.

IF POINTS IS THE ONLY OR THE BIGGEST FACTOR FOR YOU TO ANSWER POINTS AND CONTRIBUTE HERE THEN YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE HERE.

This site was designed to share information amognst a highly regarded professional community, and I for one enjoy it very much but I have great disdain for those who post responses that encourage others to shy away from helping someone because he or she doesn't assign points.

This is just one persons opinion.

Thanks for reading.

Frank G.

[Shannon Petry]

Harry,


Your philosophy is dead wrong. There is no way to steal what is given freely. Not legally, not morally, not ethically, not logically. I hit your link, but as soon as I saw "intellectual property" as the header I read no more. It has nothing to do with the forums in any way. If you post an answer on the forums, you have just given away knowledge. It is no longer "your" intellectual property because you gave it away.

Anyone can access the HP forums. Having the access means you give a valid email address. Not support related, but pointed to by support. You do NOT have to have a contract with HP to access the forums.

I give scripts on this site under the knowledge that I have just given away my development time. Others can copy it, rename it, say that they did it, etc... It matters not. If it is that valuable to me, I would not post it on a free site.

I give advice under that same knowledge. If I do good, I have then tought someone. If I do bad, then I have wasted my time. The pride is in knowing that I can teach people about Unix.

This site is free. It is not mandated anywhere that questions have bounty points on them, people do not pay, and it is not mandated that points are awarded. If that was the case, they could easily lock new threads on user accounts, until they assign points to the last post.

In the case of giving scripts or teaching, I will not disclose my knowledge base, nor give away what I think is valuable to me. Certain questions, I do not answer because it would require me giving knowledge that I have spent a tremendous amount of time in acquiring. Same with scripts. I would be a fool to give everything away for free. I'd be broke and out of Money because my customers would come here for answers instead of calling me to come help them.

When we look at some of the great things that have happened since points were implemented, I'm going to point out a few of the bad things.

1. Posting false and incorrect information in an effort to gain points without concern for the outcome if the user takes the advice.
I.E. I have posted several times catching suggestions that would have made systems non-functionlal. I have also seen the same user post for emergency help because they took the advice of a forum member and their system became non-functional.

2. I have seen a great increase in unrelated information and jibberish posted to questions in an effort to get points.

3. I have seen a great increase in posts with the exclusive content of points.

4. Points assigned to bogus answers and jibberish of very high value.

Jump out of the box for a moment, and imagine your a new user. You search the forums for your problem, and you see items 2 and 3 in posts. Will you be more or less reluctant to post a question of your own? Will you be intimidated that you have never assigned points so dont bother?

Jump out of the box, and imagine you are new. You search for your problem and happen to get item 1. Will you ever come back to this site again?

Jump out of the box, and imagine your new and get items 1 and 4 showing how great item 1 was. Will you ever come back to the site again?

Get your name out there as a good person with a great knowledge base. Consider this teaching, and teach what you know, and are confortable in sharing. Then you dont have to worry about "intellectual property".

The way I look at it with points, why bother? I know darn good and well that lots of people with more points than me have alot less knowledge than I do. I take pride in how much I know, and how well I can do in any environment of any Unix.

Since you brought imaginary taxes and polotics into the mix: Think about what caused the great reformation of the Catholic church. Cause and effect are the same, just depends on scale.

Shannon

[Rita C Workman]

Alright...I wasn't going to post to here again. I felt I had said enough earlier.
BUT.....
Harry & Shannon, you both make heartfelt responses. And since you have gotten it off your chests, maybe it is enough. You are each entitled to own views.

Based on the last response, it appears religion may be the next argument. And anyone who is a history buff (like myself ) can tell you, that EVERY major conflict through the ages, tended to start first over religion ..(second over everything else).

Can we let the 'point' issue cool for awhile?

I see your point(s)....
Rita

[harry d brown jr]

Rita,

Does that mean you are going to buy the first round? Then the next will be on Shannon or myself (coin toss will decide?)?

live free or die
harry

[Shannon Petry]

First and foremost, the debate nor the post is about "Harry". It is about a specific type of response.

Harry just happens to enjoy debate as much as I do, and has responded to the post.

If this post was about Harry, I would have titled it "Harry is a " or some such.

Next, the answer to my question was not religion. While religion may be a cause of lots of things, there is always a bigger factor behind these events. Greed.

[paul courry]

I'm jumping in here..........

I SPAM.

I SPAM because I search the forums for answers to questions. No points means I have to try all the suggestions and might just hit one that makes the system non-functional.

These forums, suplied by HP, work based on a Compact between those who know and those who don't. The basic compact as I read it is: "we are creating a database of questions and known good answers. Your job is to post questions, try out the answers and report back to us which ones worked. Our job is to give the best possible answer."

The value of the database is degraded when people who pose questions don't follow through and assign points. Searching for answers becomes an excercise in trying out all the suggestions with no idea which ones worked.

I occassionally remind others to assign points and tell them why they should. Usually they do.

BTW, I think HP is deficient here in not establishing some sort of limit on heavy users who don't post points. It is in their interest to see that the database is as of as high value as possible. That it becomes the first place people look for answers. Points help ensure the integrity and usability of the database.

[Steven E. Protter]

I think its time to move on.

I respectfully agree with both sides to a degree but lean toward Harry on this one.

The best way to reduce jibberish posts to collect points is to give them zero points.

I don't feel obligated to hand out points to a guy that says Hi steve.

I have found every response to every question I posted has had some value. So far.

Steve

[H.Merijn Brand (procura]

Before all heat up, I'm posting some figures that show that it ain't as bad as it looks from this thread. Attached is the top 900 blame list where I've removed the identifying data. Draw your own conclusions and above all, keep having fun.

I'm hanging less and less on being asigned points, especialy (I need a spell checker :) since I notice more and more wrong pointers: 10 points for "Hello" and no (or 2) points for the correct answer. I don't care anymore. I enjoy. I do!

Here's a pick from attached list for the posters that have 50 or more points themselves: only 57 out of 5500 members, a mere 1%

Points Asign Answr Rate Bunny Rspnss PtAvg
------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ------ -----
50 0 1 0.0 4 6 5.00
50 0 1 0.0 4 11 3.33
51 0 5 0.0 4 30 1.50
52 3 24 12.5 3 36 1.33
53 0 2 0.0 5 12 3.12
53 2 18 11.1 2 28 1.77
55 35 247 14.2 2 65 0.82
60 0 1 0.0 5 9 4.29
60 1 11 9.1 5 32 1.62
60 1 6 16.7 4 11 4.00
61 0 1 0.0 0 0
61 4 47 8.5 3 65 0.90
63 0 5 0.0 1 24 2.52
65 0 1 0.0 5 4 7.22
65 11 76 14.5 1 18 3.42
67 0 2 0.0 5 16 3.19
67 2 23 8.7 6 8 4.79
67 2 11 18.2 3 111 0.59
74 0 5 0.0 5 31 2.06
75 0 2 0.0 6 13 3.95
78 0 2 0.0 4 17 3.71
85 1 22 4.5 6 45 1.67
90 1 5 20.0 7 38 2.00
92 1 12 8.3 7 41 1.92
95 2 10 20.0 8 65 1.30
97 0 5 0.0 7 26 2.94
97 4 69 5.8 3 82 1.14
102 0 1 0.0 8 33 2.49
106 0 4 0.0 4 46 2.12
106 0 3 0.0 9 31 2.65
123 0 1 0.0 4 51 2.24
126 2 14 14.3 7 61 1.85
147 0 1 0.0 8 66 1.99
153 0 1 0.0 9 35 3.48
198 0 3 0.0 12 72 2.36
213 0 13 0.0 16 51 3.18
241 0 10 0.0 19 94 2.13
241 0 6 0.0 16 101 2.06
251 0 1 0.0 22 79 2.49
261 2 11 18.2 21 89 2.37
263 0 11 0.0 16 140 1.69
273 9 63 14.3 14 97 2.46
295 0 2 0.0 26 63 3.31
366 0 1 0.0 21 89 3.33
373 0 3 0.0 29 112 2.65
385 0 1 0.0 20 169 2.04
418 0 5 0.0 18 153 2.44
458 0 1 0.0 32 249 1.63
469 0 8 0.0 31 185 2.17
500 0 2 0.0 38 104 3.52
553 0 136 0.0 44 239 1.95
748 0 1 0.0 41 211 2.97
825 0 2 0.0 54 448 1.64
862 11 68 16.2 50 204 3.39
1516 0 10 0.0 104 512 2.46
1872 0 6 0.0 110 1468 1.19
1903 0 2 0.0 131 333 4.10


Enjoy, have FUN! H.Merijn

[Dietmar Konermann]

Ha, looks like I'm the top scorer in this list. 0 out of 2 -> 0%. Unfortunately I cannot assign, since the threads are deleted test threads. :-)

Best regards...
Dietmar.

[Chuck J]

I don't think there's anything wrong in "reminding a user" to assign points. I don't think it's spam at all. The point system has been put in place, so it would be nice if people would use it. It takes nothing to assign points. Alot of people even write "Thanks for the help" at the bottom of their message and don't assign any points. I would not vote to include this kind of "spam" in forum etiquette. I don't have a problem at all with Harry's or the other two messages that you've copied into the top of this message. Guys like Harry & Ravi contribute day in and day out, why not make them feel good about their posts rather then tell them not to "spam". My 2 cents, obviously not in line with the majority here...

Chuck J

[Shannon Petry]

If you really see no problem with members telling people not to help others with problems seek help.

The same ediquette document that tells people how and why to assign points, should prohibit this behavior. We as members should police this behavior.

It's bad enough that points are used as a tool to prejudice ourselves. It is worse that the society as a whole does not stop that prejudice from working publicly. People are ignoring, overlooking, and condoning that behavior.

And yes, telling someone to not assign an answer because they feel the user did not assign points is exactly prejudice.

Sure, it's their right to pursue points. It is not their right to discourage people from helping. It is not their right to share their bias with the many other contributors on the site.

Everyone who contributes here is a volunteer. Please look up the definition of a volunteer.