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01-17-2007 06:53 AM
01-17-2007 06:53 AM
Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
On closer examination, the release notes are specific in identifying that Central & Eastern Canada/US timezones have changed. We're on the West Coast and no Western timezones (Pacific/Mountain Time) are listed in these release notes.
Should I be concerned?
Release notes are: http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/cki/patchDocDisplay.do?patchId=VMS82A_TZ-V0100
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01-17-2007 07:30 AM
01-17-2007 07:30 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
No need to be concerned. You are fine with that patch installed.
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01-17-2007 04:22 PM
01-17-2007 04:22 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
The story we have heard so far is that at the time the ECO kit was built, Alberta and another province had not yet agreed to the DST changes. So at that time the old rules were considered to be still in effect.
We may use the US Mountain time zone as a workaround (don't know for sure if that is 100% viable). The other solution is to use ZIC to compile a new set of updated rules. Never done that and the documentation on ZIC is a one "man" pager in the appendix of the CRTL doc.
P.S.
I believe I also tested an 8.3 system and the Canadian Mountain zone is wrong there also.
Bill
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01-17-2007 10:50 PM
01-17-2007 10:50 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
For some reason, HP Java has its own TZ files, and some databases (e.g. Ingres) also have their own TZ files.
Java comes with its own version of ZIC, as does Ingres.
Good luck!
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01-17-2007 11:05 PM
01-17-2007 11:05 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
Might be worth raising this through standard support channels.
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01-18-2007 04:39 AM
01-18-2007 04:39 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
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01-18-2007 08:39 AM
01-18-2007 08:39 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
If you're concerned, you can confirm exactly what was changed by looking at the time zone definition sources. See logical name SYS$TZDIR to find where they're stored. Look in subdirectory SOURCES and find the source module (most likely it's "NORTHAMERICA."). The files are text, in a unix standard format "ZIC" for describing timezones. It's reasonably self explanatory, and usually includes copious comments explaining the minutae & trivia surrounding each zone change back to antiquity. For example:
1382 # Before 1920, all ships kept local apparent time on the high seas by setting
1383 # their clocks at night or at the morning sight so that, given the ship's
1384 # speed and direction, it would be 12 o'clock when the Sun crossed the ship's
1385 # meridian (12 o'clock = local apparent noon). During 1917, at the
1386 # Anglo-French Conference on Time-keeping at Sea, it was recommended that all
1387 # ships, both military and civilian, should adopt hourly standard time zones
1388 # on the high seas. Whenever a ship was within the territorial waters of any
1389 # nation it would use that nation's standard time. The captain was permitted
1390 # to change his ship's clocks at a time of his choice following his ship's
1391 # entry into another zone time--he often chose midnight. These zones were
1392 # adopted by all major fleets between 1920 and 1925 but not by many
1393 # independent merchant ships until World War II.
If you said NO to the "Purge files?" question when you installed the patch, you should be able to DIFF the files to see exactly what changed.
Furthermore, if you don't like the changes OpenVMS Engineering made, you can edit them however you like and regenerate the zone rules. Alternatively, you should be able to find zone definitions from other systems or on the web and use those if you think they're more accurate.
(us folk in other parts of the planet have had do deal with numerous changes in time zone rules over the past few years, but we don't "rate" enough to have OpenVMS Engineering generate a patch to fix them. ;-)
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01-18-2007 09:33 AM
01-18-2007 09:33 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
Timezone-related changes are quite common across the planet -- it's simply that the US hasn't seen one of these widespread rules change in comparative eons. Folks outside the US have had to create and apply locally-relevant TZ changes for some years. The Australian OpenVMS community has expertice in this particular area, having seen various changes to the rules over the past decade or so. The Sydney Olympics and the Melbourne Commonwealth Games both involved DST rules changes.
If you want to build upon what John G. has indicated around the rules files and ZIC and such, do see the FAQ and see the DEC C Utilities Manual for OpenVMS, or see wherever the ZIC and related utilities documentation has migrated within the OpenVMS manuals.
Stephen Hoffman
HoffmanLabs
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01-18-2007 08:48 PM
01-18-2007 08:48 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
http://h18012.www1.hp.com/java/alpha/DST-US.html
Purely Personal Opinion
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01-19-2007 03:26 AM
01-19-2007 03:26 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
I've even had an HP tech proceed to tell me that it's really easy to change the time. Big deal - I know.
This is VMS. I shouldn't have to worry about whether or not time zone changes are handled correctly. For you folks in other parts of the world that have had to put up with incorrect time changes and have had to manually correct it - I'd get on the horn and blast my HP salesrep.
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01-19-2007 04:09 AM
01-19-2007 04:09 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
Not worried? Wait for the switch-over, and watch.
Concerned about the ECO doc? Read on...
If something goes bump in the middle of the night, it's usually easy to fix -- this based on the history of TDF-related problems. Once in a while something goes really weird -- Year 2038 tipped over the audit server, for instance.
Timezone and DST stuff has popped up twice a year for the decade I've been watching it. It's certainly getting better, but things can and do occasionally go weird. And older releases aren't as good at it.
I've spent years trying to sort this area out within OpenVMS. That's where the OpenVMS FAQ chapter on time and timekeeping got its start. After all that, I've realized that time and timezones are not simple. That time itself is not simple. It's a huge, ugly, twisty mess. Time only really looks simple.
DECnet Phase IV used to tip over for one hour once a year, for instance. That got fixed.
Had anyone the ability to re-architect OpenVMS, the areas of time and timekeeping would clearly be good targets for changes and improvements. A UTC time base, for instance. Timezones and opaque UTC-style binary time everywhere. But changing this (now) would break assumptions and existing behaviors, and the timestamps written all over the place would have to be managed, and the logic found all over would have to be managed. And more than a few applications and components (C, Java, DECnet-Plus DTSS, DCE DTSS, NTP, OpenVMS itself) all think they understand and manage time.
OpenVMS V7.3 and later and the associated core layered products are about the best that is and can be available around timekeeping on OpenVMS. That's when DECnet-Plus DTSS timekeeping was integrated into the base operating system, and the core components and LPs started to use that. Older OpenVMS releases are somewhat spotty in this area, but -- the further back you go -- these releases and these applications can also tend to be less exposed to time-related problems.
If you are concerned about the release notes here, do report your concerns to HP more directly. Errors and omissions within ECO release notes have been seen before, unfortunately.
But if you are concerned about the DST change or if you have production requirements here, do consider testing it.
I'd suspect that the root problem with the Canadian DST was that an earlier ECO update included the US rules, and various of the Canadian provinces decided to follow the US changes. But the provinces were not in the ECO. As for the wording of the ECO, check with HP...
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01-24-2007 11:19 AM
01-24-2007 11:19 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
As Bill Hall previously posted, at the time this patch was released BC and Alberta had not officially accepted adopting the US time changes. The patch was released with the correct information AT THAT TIME. Since then; however, BC and Alberta have adopted the US time changes so this patch now contains incorrect DST settings for those Canadian regions.
The work-around Marc provided me was to reset our time zone to US PACIFIC time by running SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE. Note, that this solution is intended for systems runnning DECNET PHASE V and DTSS. Your work-around may be different depending on your configuration.
Also note: At the time of our conversation, HP Engineering was not planning on releasing an updated patch for this.
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01-24-2007 12:54 PM
01-24-2007 12:54 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
>Also note: At the time of our
>conversation, HP Engineering was not
>planning on releasing an updated patch
>for this.
That's standard practice. It seems that VMS engineering believe that everyone other than customers in the contiguous 48 are smart enough to figure out how to fix it themselves ;-)
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01-24-2007 08:50 PM
01-24-2007 08:50 PM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
http://www.hp.com/go/dst
this one pulls together the various product pages.
Purely Personal Opinion
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01-29-2007 05:39 AM
01-29-2007 05:39 AM
Re: Does VMS82A_TZ-V0100 address time zone changes for the West Coast?
OpenVMS engineering will release updated versions of the time zone kits for the following versions of OpenVMS Alpha and Integrity:
OpenVMS Alpha V8.2
OpenVMS Alpha V8.3
OpenVMS I64 V8.2-1
OpenVMS I64 V8.3
These kits will contain updated Mountain and Pacific time zone information for Canada. The kits should be finalized and ready for release by mid to late February.
Yours truly,
Fred.