Itanium.....

[Jan van den Ende]

Just today I received the september edition of the (Dutch version of?)HP assortiment.

What worries me quite a bit: in previous months there was a Chapter "HP Itanium workstations"

Now the sole content of this chapter is
(tranlation from Dutch)

"Starting august 1th HP Itanium workstations will no longer be included in the assortiment overview.
For more info contact your distributor or your HP contact person"

Now, we do not yet have IA64 plans, but how should we interpret such messages?

To say the least, at least with me, it does not contribute to any warm feelings towards Itanium....

Jan

[Brad McCusker]

Should this be in the Workstations Forums?

[Antoniov.]

Jan,
your post is strange for me. On september, 28th and 29th I'll go to axp to itanium meeting, in Rome (Italy) and on october I'll receive a RX Itanium with Vms V8.2.
I planned porting of my software form AXp to IA64 and here, in Italy, it seems HP support VMS on Itanium.
May be some limitation over workstation?

Antonio Vigliotti

P.S.
Sorry for Billyware words used in other thread; sometimes my customer can understand only that terms; sigh :-(

[Willem Grooters]

Jan,
In our 'meeting' with I think Marc Gorham during the bootcamp, the question on Itannium workstations was raised as well. Much to the requestor's dismay - and given the support on her remark, shared by many otrhers - it was stated that HP had no plans for Itanium Workstations - running VMS, anyway. The reason that was given was that there was "no signal in the market that this type of workstation is required - given the cost".
No doubt you can use an rx2600 "(as was suggested) - once the fan has been silenced....

So ité not really a surpris. But NOT a pleasant one!
Wille

[John Gillings]

Jan, Willem,

For reasons that escape me (as a simple engineer), marketeers and managers use the term "workstation" in a quite different way to the rest of us.

So, an XP900 is a "workstation", but a DS10 with a graphics card is a "server" (even though they're pretty much EXACTLY the same hardware and do EXACTLY the same job).

So, if you want what the rest of us call a workstation, just buy a low end "server" and fill it up with graphics cards. It will do what you want, (but don't let anyone catch you calling it a "workstation").

The only problem if it's IA64 based is it will be VERY LOUD! Which might be a problem if you want it in the same room as the keyboard, mouse and monitor. I suspect that's the main reason HP doesn't want to market any IA64 systems as workstations.

[Jan van den Ende]

Yes.


Okay, I _DO_ realise that the chapter on workstations probably only is about M$ system, and that is way far of off VMS (and *UX) systems, and, given John's answer, I tend to understand.

My main point was about THE IMPACT of such entries in systems catalogs:
To nearly ANY manager this has pretty much the sound of: "So, obviously they tried, but they are already giving in. That Itanium stuff ___HAS___ failed!~ Good thing we did not get them yet."
It SURELY is NO encouragement to consider STARTING to get them for VMS & Unix now!!!.

But, John (even though I suspect it is way out of your scope) can some-one explain HOW it has ever been considered to bring to market a workstation so noisy that it is absolutely unfit as a workstation? That way you are very predictably PLANNING to fail!
And contaminate all other IA64 systems with the fallout of that failure....

It has absolutely nothing (?) to do with TECHNICAL reasons, but you cannot even GET to the technical aspects if you got the "OH no!" even before that.

It makes it harder to even BEGIN to get an evaluation system, and the time to do the evaluation.

It has me worrying.


Jan

[Hiroyuki_1]

Hello .
I've bought zx6000 workstations . DO you think is there possibility of montecito upgrading with BIOS by myself ? And I'm afraid of being noisy .
Thank you .

[Wim Van den Wyngaert]

HP should hire VW : they are specialist in encapsulating noisy engines.

More info of someone that agrees with you :
http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2004/mft04092718.htm?source=eptyholnk303100&logvisit=y&npu=y

All news of HP :
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/h?s=HPQ

Wim

[Willem Grooters]

This has been mentioned on openvms.org as well. One remark in that discussion stroke me, I think is makes sense.
In principle it is a matter of definition of "Server" and "Workstation". What about this one: "A server is a workstation without graphical card" - or the other way round. In other words: it actually doesn't matter. Take a rx2600 (which is designed as a server), put in a good graphical card, and you have your workstation. Point is (except for the noise) the price. A AMD- of Pentium/Xeon based one is much cheaper and does it job at least as well, most sufficient for the vast majority of users. The advantage: it doesn't run VMS...
But I agree with the remark it could be a not-so-good signal to the market.

[Uwe Zessin]

We haven't seen 'true' Alpha workstations for years, either. I don't think it makes sense to develop, qualify, maintain an extra workstation line when a low-end server and a low-volume workstation are so similar - just take the sever and sell it with a 'workstation' license package.

[Ian Miller.]

I've been exchanging emails (what is the verb for conducting a dialogue via email ?) with Nathan Brookwood (http://www.insight64.com/) on the perception that no more itanium workstations from hp is a bad thing. I think it looks bad and he doesn't. Lets hope he is right. I also note Terry S has come back and has a comment on this http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=04/09/28/7082622

I think hp need to address this perception by providing a developers packaged system based on a rx1600 or rx2600 and making more widely available than just the DSPP.

[labadie_1 · Accepted solution]

Ian

quote
I've been exchanging emails (what is the verb for conducting a dialogue via email ?)
end quote

I have recently learnt that drailing is emailing when drunk, but I think it does not apply to your dialogue :-)

[Jan van den Ende]

Gerard,

after I posted this thread I was wondering how on earth someone could post an answer that would be satisfying enough to deserve a bunny.
The big laugh I got out of yours can only be paid by counting that to qualify --- under the condition that I have herewith aquired the right to use it whenever and wherever it suits me!!!
:-) :<] 8-} ;-) &c., &c., &c., .... !!!!


jpe

[Ian Miller.]

"I have recently learnt that drailing is emailing when drunk, but I think it does not apply to your dialogue :-)"

The emails were sent when I was at home and sober (as a true VMS fanatic I do VMS at work and and home too :-) however I can't claim to be sober all the time :-)

I still would like to see a word for having a dialogue via email.

Getting back to the original subject (and why not for a change :-) I think this could have been marketed as a good thing or parhaps not a bad thing. I still would like to see hp do a cheap developers system and see the relative (to alpha) cheapness of itanium systems as an oppourtunity to do so.

[Kris Clippeleyr]

Jan, and others,

There is quite a bit of commotion 'round the announcement of HP for discontinuing its support on Itanium based workstations like the zx2000 and zx6000 workstations.
Especially on the comp.os.vms newsgroup (see http://www.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=nl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=415B730D.7090806%40tsoft-inc.com&prev=/groups%3Fas_ugroup%3Dcomp.os.vms).

I'm not sure what they (=HP marketing) are doing, but I intend to take up this issue at HP Dutch World with the HP marketeers (if any are present, and can comment on this).

Unfortunately, a press agency like Reuters, misinterpreted the original announcement op HP, and boldly said that

HP to Stop Using Intel Itanium Chip

(see: http://investor.news.com/Engine?Account=cnet&PageName=NEWSREAD&ID=1351969&Ticker=INTC&SOURCE=N26397672)
I'm not sure what damage that will do.

I'm just wandering if HP marketing is going the same way as Digital, Compaq; i.e. down the drain.

Just my 2 cents,

Kris

[Antoniov.]

Hi Jan,
from Italy HP ambassadors gave me some good news!

VMS is supported on rx1000/2000 family with V8.2 avaiable now; for end user will be avaiable since november 2004. After VMS will be avaiable on other hardware since 2005. I have to download the roadmap and I'll publish it as soon.
VMS ambassadors told me VMS would be avaiable on no HP hardware too :-)
HP & VMS engineerings will stabilize VMS on Itanium, so initial release is limitated.

Antonio Vigliotti

[Willem Grooters]

Antonion

VMS ambassadors told me VMS would be avaiable on no HP hardware too :-)


.. as we learned at bootcamp. The issue was raised there, and the answer of engineering was: "It might - if the hardware is supported".
I guess, while HP will build it's Itanium machines using HP chips on it (and there are quit a bit of them) it's obvious that VMS will run on machines using that hardware. I guess a company like Dell won't use these chips (too expensive for them, to start with) so you simply cannot tell. It may, or it may not. And since it's not HP hardware, it won't be supported - at all.
Unless, of course, your VMS ambasador has other information stating that VMS on non-HP hardware will be supported. Which is (I think) a good thing. next, lean the press to read (and quote) properly!

Willem

[Antoniov.]

Hi Willem,

.. as we learned at bootcamp. The issue was raised there, and the answer of engineering was: "It might - if the hardware is supported".

Agree


I guess, while HP will build it's Itanium machines using HP chips on it (and there are quit a bit of them) it's obvious that VMS will run on machines using that hardware. I guess a company like Dell won't use these chips (too expensive for them, to start with) so you simply cannot tell. It may, or it may not. And since it's not HP hardware, it won't be supported - at all.
Unless, of course, your VMS ambasador has other information stating that VMS on non-HP hardware will be supported. Which is (I think) a good thing. next, lean the press to read (and quote) properly!

It's a surprise for me but VMS on Itanium doesn't need no HP hardware!
VMS ambassadors told me:
- VMS on Itanium run in native mode (no PAL code)
- SRM will not avaiable; boot of Itanium VMS use EFI as all OS on IA64
- System calling is different form alpha and it's standard Intel
- The chip used on HP server are Intel chips, no HP
- On Itanium the pricing of VMS is full different from AXP and comparable with HP-UX and Windows 2K3

Obviuosly this doesn't means other companies will sell VMS, but this is technically possible.

Antonio Vigliotti

[Jan van den Ende]

Hi all,

As Kris said, the issue was also taken up in COV and in OPENVMS.ORG

I guess this thread was the first on the topic, if only by a small margin.

Most things are said in the combined threads, I think.

Bottom line:
it does NOT directly affect VMS. But it WILL probably prevent IA64 becoming "commodity, industry standard", and as such it does nothing to improve my feelings about it.

Thanks all


Jan

[Jan van den Ende]

Thnx all