Is this possible? (NOOB)

[Craig E.]

I am a total noob working on a new project for AEGIS (big Boat shoots missiles). We need to be able to load a new OE along with the weapon system application/files to about 50 nodes. These nodes are running HP-UX 10.2 with ignite version A.2.2160. The nodes are HP 744 cards mounted in a VME chassis. The cards have a FIDDI connection throught the VME and the 744 ethernet connection on the card. The hard drives are SCSI narrow from the 744 card. Currenlty we hook 4mm tape drives into the SCSI chain, boot from the 4mm and copy over files. This is done through ignite and takes about an hour per node. What I want to know is can we push or pull the OE and the other applications/files onto these 744 cards via some kind of laptop server (that we bring and introduce into the network or wire our own little network.) These nodes have the same OE but different applications that need to be installed. I am not sure what other information you might need to know but ask and i will reply with what i know. Also without an act of congress we cannot change anything on the ship. We can replace the OE with the same OE (in order to insure its integrity) and then we can install the new Weapon System. We can not change the version of ignite or anything else like that.

Any help would be appriciated and if your interested in the problem i can keep you posted. This is a real world problem and the United States military needs your help : )

[Steven E. Protter]

I believe what you are tying to do is possible.

The problem you may have is that HP-UX 10.20 is off support and your Ignite version is years out of date.

I would at the very least consider getting the latest Ignite release for 10.20 deployed on the image server.

Other changes are required for your plan:

1) I do not know of any HP-UX laptops. Therefore you either need an Ignite server on the network(the Aegis boat) or you need to build an image onto tape.

What you need to do in order to accomplish this is build a make_recovery(obsolete) make_tape_recovery tape. That means building a machine with all software, OE and additional software in the lab and making the tape. I strongly urge you do this with the latest version of Ignite. If the nodes can hack it, use HP-UX 11 or 11.11. You can use this as an upgrade. Obviously you are going to need to test this on a ship in the yard, thoroughly and extensively.

That tape can be introduced to one of the HP-UX nodes in the system

restart the machine
interupt at console at the 10 second prompt

sea


You will see a display with a sequential device(tape)

bo p3 if the tape is p3 on the prior display.

N, do not interact on the next prompt

You may need to interupt the Ignite load to make adjustments to filesystem size and hardware.

Now you have a good node on the ship. That node can be used as an ignite golden image server.

use make_sys_image to build a golden image of the system.

Now if the nodes are on the same subnet, you can boot any node into install mode as follows

boot at the console
interupt at the 10 second prompt

boot lan.ip_address_of_golden_image_server install

The install can be interactive or automated.

I did take note of the OS version and Ignite not changing.

With a lot of pain you might be able to pull all of this off without a new Ignite or OS version, but HP won't help you.

I fear without changing the parameters of the project it is doomed to difficulty and possible failure. My reasons are above.

I think you need help. I'd be happy to help my country by writing a short paper on the house, or a more detailed work plan and justification as a consultant.

I want this to succeed, but the Ignite version will make that very tough.

SEP

[Stefan Farrelly]

Toughie. I presume you use ignite to boot off the 4mm tape and then reload the OE (OS and apps) onto each node in turn, which takes a long time. If this is correct then yes, you can replace the 4mm tape with an ignite server (a box running HP-UX with an ignite server running). This can be introduced on your network then you can boot via lan each node from this new ignite server, and load your OE via the network (instead of a slow 4mm scsi tape) - which will be much faster.

[Steven E. Protter]

One mis-statement. I spoke for HP. That was wrong, I don't work for them. I apologize.

I suppose if the government paid them enough, they'd support the project.

SEP

[G. Vrijhoeven]

Hi,

Sorry to inform you but i an not gonne assist on a Weapon System... and that on a friday afternoon! Call me a deserter. :-)

Sorrie no idea. I would go for an ignite server but since you are not able to upgrade that is no option.

Gideon

[Steven E. Protter]

G. Vrijhoeven,

This is not a political forum or thread.

The Aegis is a defensive weapons system that may be able some day to down incoming ballistic missiles. I do remember the mistake in the Gulf during the 1980's

I think we can all see by the way the government is constraining this project that its going to be very hard.

The purpose of the forum is to assist the poster in working out his isssues. Its an IT challenge not a political problem.

I urge my follow forumers to think about this when posting. If I have crossed the line, please delete this post. I think the prior post should go at the same time.

SEP

[curt larson_1 · Accepted solution]

yes you can do this.

you'll need to set up an ignite server and make golden images of the various software packages. When you do is in your development environment, you should run into most of the issues that your going to have, such as, needing a gui device to run the ignite server process (pushing the software and monitoring), booting devices on different subnets, limit of how many you can ignite at the same time, etc.

then you just need to get your ignite server on the boat.

if you use the same equipment (744 and disks)

1) use spare parts on the ship and just ignite your ignite server to the spare equipment.

2) bring your own 744 and disks. more then a laptop, but should be manageable. best case, you just need some power outlets and an unused slot. worst case you pull theirs and install yours.

of course the bottom line is how much time is this going to save you, i.e how often do you do upgrades. 50 hours/year doesn't give you much time to implement and test this new delivery method, ie is it really going to cost effective

[Craig E.]

Some background.
We cannot change any hardware. We are lucky that we can disconnect certain cables.
We cannot add device drivers or any other modification to the OE or any software that it is running unless it is part of the new weapon system.
We can bring just about anything we want onto the ship (we cannot leave anything) and we would probably be able to purchase a high end portable device of somekind if it exists(lightweight, we have to carry the equipment onboard).
As for saving time...as of right now it takes a coulpe of days to do an install with a crew of five poeple going to every node with a 4mm drive and using ignite to boot from the 4mm and copy over the new OE and apps. The only thing that is similiar between each node is the OE, none of the other files are the same. (Goes along with a Golden Image for each node mentioned in an earlier post).
We do ship installs about every two weeks or so. And each install would use differnt media. So at the lab we build the media onto bootable 4mm's and take them all with us.

Also getting to the nodes is really diffcult (Ship's spaces are really confined) so setting up a server in a central location then having each node pull what it needs (or get pushed)would be beneficial and also allow us to due multiple nodes at once and not have to mess with to much hardware. The Ship doenst like civilians touching thier equipment.

If we get a Server does it have to have the same version of ignite as the Nodes?

Does the server need to have the same OE (10.2)?

Is the version of ignite we have capable of LAN installs?

Does ignite have a logging utility that can log everything that is going on?

Thanks for the help.

[Steven E. Protter]

>>>
Also getting to the nodes is really diffcult (Ship's spaces are really confined) so setting up a server in a central location then having each node pull what it needs (or get pushed)would be beneficial and also allow us to due multiple nodes at once and not have to mess with to much hardware. The Ship doenst like civilians touching thier equipment.
<<<<
Well the Navy's going to have to let someone touch the equipment. Seems due to access requirements, you are better off with an Ignite central server delivered by tape(which would be your portable device, suggest a scsi external dat4 drive). Then one node is the ignite server. You will have to remotely reach each client and set them up as valid Ignite clients.

If we get a Server does it have to have the same version of ignite as the Nodes?

Yes.


Does the server need to have the same OE (10.2)?

You can build an OE and patch upgrade into the Ignite image if the Navy lets you.

Is the version of ignite we have capable of LAN installs?

I am not sure of this. You need to do some reading:

http://docs.hp.com/cgi-bin/fsearch/framedisplay?top=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90772/B2355-90772_top.html&con=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90772/00/00/11-con.html&toc=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90772/00/00/11-toc.html&searchterms=10.20%7cIgnite&queryid=20040123-121740
http://docs.hp.com/cgi-bin/fsearch/framedisplay?top=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90788/B2355-90788_top.html&con=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90788/00/00/71-con.html&toc=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90788/00/00/71-toc.html&searchterms=10.20%7cIgnite&queryid=20040123-121740
http://docs.hp.com/cgi-bin/fsearch/framedisplay?top=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90153/B2355-90153_top.html&con=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90153/00/00/55-con.html&toc=/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90153/00/00/55-toc.html&searchterms=10.20%7cIgnite&queryid=20040123-121740

The answer is in these manuals.

SEP


Does ignite have a logging utility that can log everything that is going on?

[Steven E. Protter]

If supported lan installs need to be done one of two ways:

1) machine on the same subnet
2) a helper ignite server is on the subnet with the target client.

All machines must boot of only built in lans. If those cards don't work, the card must be replaced.

SEP

[Patrick Wallek]

Using an Ignite server would assume that the HP 744 cards/machines can boot via their network interface. That may or may not be the case. You should first research whether or not that is possible. I am not familiar with those so I can't answer for certain.

[G. Vrijhoeven]

SEP,

I can take a hint. It was as a humor, but ok.

Craig.

If we get a Server does it have to have the same version of ignite as the Nodes?

No

An Ignite-UX version B.x server can install HP-UX 10.20 and 11.0/11i OS and applications on target systems. An Ignite-UX version A.x server can only install HP-UX 10.x software on target systems.

The also answers question2.

Gideon

[Steven E. Protter]

G. Vrijhoeven,

Please accept my apologies.

I made way to big a deal out of this.

Sorry for clouding up the thread.

Good Luck with the project and contact me if you need or want help.

SEP

[curt larson_1]

>>
setting up a server in a central location then having each node pull what it needs (or get pushed)would be beneficial and also allow us to due multiple nodes at once and not have to mess with to much hardware.
>>

This is going to be the big sticking point, connecting to a central location. I doubt your 50 nodes are all on the same subnet. Meaning, you'll have to attach your ignite server to each subnet. Either, do each subnet one at at time, or have several network interfaces or several ignite servers. if your fortunate, you'll be able to access all the various subnets from a central location.

And, you might not be able to do several install at the same time. Doing an install on a 10Mhz network is going to cause quite a bit of congestion. Doing several at a time could be problem if the network is needed for other purposes.

Further more, if you looking for speed, your going to need a system with lots of cpu, memory, and network connections. it isn't called an ignite server because it is a light weight application. unfortunately, it isn't going to be easy for a couple of guys to haul a server class system aboard, but it can be done. A couple of smaller desktop systems might be easier.

[Laurent Menase]

Hi,

1) 744 can boot on the buildin 10bt if it can be used on your system. Thre is no mean to boot over the fddi vme board.

2) an other solution would be to hook a CDrom in place of the tape drives, and have an ignite image on a CDrom

[Laurent Menase]

If you can connect your labtop on the same subnet as your 744, and if you really want to boot from a laptop, you can try to configure bootpd/tftpd to boot the "lan" ignite image

You can also try to dd an hfs cdrom image to a hard disk, hook it on your scsi, and boot from that hard disk.

[Mic V.]

I can share our experience in Thailand...our facility was located about an hour outside a major city, so we used an A-class system as a "laptop"...it weighs about 50 pounds, but at least it was doable! It (sans console) got lugged around for about 18 months and came back home none the worse for wear.

We ran 11.00 on it and had it loaded up with two 36GB drives.

I sure wish you guys could get onto a supported OS, though. Just tell us who we have to write a letter to! :)

HTH,
Mic

[doug hosking]

Hmmm... a 712 perhaps with an external CD drive would weigh a lot less than an A-class. While not quite a laptop, they're probably close to the lightest HP-UX-capable system. Since they use single-ended SCSI I'm not sure you'd be able to find huge disk drives for them, but for 10.20 you shouldn't need anything all that huge. (Of course your applications and related data may be, but I doubt you could say anything about those.) This would at least provide you with a portable way of getting HP-UX on a 10 mbit network, with easy access to a stack of
(custom?) CDs that would be a lot faster than DAT tape. Presumably you can burn whatever custom CDs you need in a less sparse setting.

[Craig E.]

Thanks for all the information. I definatly have a lot to go on now. This forum is a wealth of knowledge and i greatly appreciate everyones time. Below is a link to an HP-UX laptop if anyone is interested. I have not researched its capabilities yet but the price qoute was $9000-$16000 depending on specs. Thanks again

http://www.unixlaptops.com/precisionbook.html

[Pratyush Paul_1]

Hi -


What you can do is get an ignite server with all the 10.20/11.0/11.i images on it. Now according to the requirement you can push 10.20/11.0/11.i OSes to the client. What I am saying is getting an ignite server with all the depots in a single server. Keep the control from the server. But to do all these you need to have a better ignite version on your system, your current system is too old to have all these accomplished. I am willing to help, and walk you thru this situation. Please let me know if you need any additional assitance. I will be happy to help you.

Thanks

Pratyush

[doug hosking]

Yes, there have been a few laptops made to support HP-UX, but usually as repackaged specials for extreme niche markets - so
niche that they weren't generally available.
(like highly ruggedized versions for field use under extreme conditions) I wasn't previously aware of the one you found.

For most folks the $9K-$16K you quote would
be prohibitively expensive compared to the
$100 (or less) to pick up a used 712/100 on ebay or through a used computer vendor.

(http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073343259 is just one
example, with no opinion on the seller implied here). Add a CD drive and/or more disk space and plug into an existing monitor already on the ship and it might work for your purposes. Thc CPU chassis (minus monitor, keyboard, etc.) is light enough to carry under one arm without a sweat.

On the other hand, given the importance
of the work you're talking about and the number of times someone would have to do it, it might well be worth the extra money for the laptop system.

[Mic V.]

The advantage to the A-class was that it was self-contained. You could literally stick it under your arm and go; no fussing with external peripherals.