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Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

 
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Kent Ostby
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Actually, the series of words that my friends and I use for easy jokes are the "omb" words:

womb, tomb, comb, bomb,

Like going to the ticket window when "Tomb Raider" came out and asking for two tickets to "Tom" (rhymes with bomb) Raider or "Tome" (rhymes with comb) Raider.

Cheesey I admit, but if I'm stuck with English, I might as well have some fun.

Kent Ostby
"Well, actually, she is a rocket scientist" -- Steve Martin in "Roxanne"
Todd McDaniel_1
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Ralph,

The main difficulty with the English(USA version)language, is that it is not a language of its own.

As you may know, our American English and to some degree the British English are based on several languages.

Namely and foremost:

Greek
Latin
Italian
French
Germanic

Also, the problem is that our Country, USA, is a conglomeration of races not of a native population as most of Europe is and the rest of Asia/Africa, et al. After all we only have a 400-500 year history on this continent.

Most of Europe and the former Soviet Union/Eastern Block, have over 1000 to 1500 even 2000 years of history, in some cases over 3000 as with China.

WE have no language history of our own for developing our own method of speaking, as the aforementioned countries/regions do.

Ours is a melting pot of races/nations/languages... so you would then expect that English is the hardest language to learn and not Mandarin Chinese.
Unix, the other white meat.
Ken Hayes
New Member

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Ralph commented on his perceptions of the pronunciation of Australians, and asked for further information regarding the settlement of our country, after Keely implied that all Australians form sentences with a final upward inflection.

It is clear that neither of them has met many, if any, Australians, and their sweeping assumptions and unprovoked statements were both unnecessary and inaccurate.

If Ralph ever decides to test his belief that Australians sound like East Enders, I invite him to travel to our rather large part of the world and try to find anyone other than transplanted Londoners who sound remotely Cockney. As for Keely, may I suggest that he or she stops relying on soap operas for his or her education in things Australian.

Ralph, before you again start spouting such words as "playground for desperados", please be so good as to read a few history books: yes, convicts from England were sent to Australia; yes, a few of them had been convicted of crimes considered relatively major at the time, but most were the sort of "desperados" who had stolen the odd loaf of bread to feed their children. Don't forget, Ralph (or rather go to the trouble of learning some facts), that the death penalty was then exacted for a variety of what are now considered minor offences, as well as for murder and major larceny. Very few real criminals were transported, as they were summarily executed, but an enormous number of English and Irish, of both the starving and the political prisoner categories were sent here.

Only a tiny proportion of Australians has convict ancestry, Ralph. The large injections of immigrants arrived as free settlers following first the gold rushes which began in the 1850s, after convict transportation had ceased, then during the rapid expansion which took place thereafter for seventy-odd years, and again after World War II, when many Europeans, led by the English but including hundreds of thousands of continental Europeans displaced or unsettled by that unnecessary conflict arrived on our shores.

I don't know, Ralph, whether everyone in your country, whichever it is, speaks your language, whatever it is, in exactly the same way, but let me inform you that not everyone in Australia speaks English similarly. You imply that you are aware that East Enders speak differently from others in the UK, so why do you assume that all Aussies speak similarly?

As you do assume that, please allow me to disabuse you of that erroneous conviction. In this country, Ralph, how well one speaks is determined much more by one's upbringing and education than by the fact that several thousand unfortunate Poms from the East End landed here two hundred years ago. In Australia, Ralph, we vary. No doubt this will be a great disappointment to you, but the fact is that most of us speak in a way very similar to what was not long ago called Southern British.

No doubt, Ralph, the speech of some of my countrymen is less than perfect, but to compare the speech of even the least educated of them to that of a Cockney is to make almost as ignorant a statement as is possible. Cockneys employ the glottal stop; Australians do not. Cockneys say "chahnce" for "chance"; Australians do not. By all means criticise our English when you have perfected yours, Ralph, but when you do, please attempt to make your criticisms accurate.

Finally, don't forget that Australia is the largest English-speaking country other than the UK which has not become Americanised, either in its pronunciation or its spelling of English. We also play cricket, rugby league and union, and drive on the correct side of the road.
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

As has already been pointed out, your problem is compounded by American pronunciation for lots of words being different from English.

Following several recent holidays in USA visiting family, my children deliberately wind me up by saying "skedule" instead of "schedule" (soft sound in English). Another of my pet hates is the American pronunciation of "trauma", where the au rhymes with "cow". In English it rhymes with "or".

But you might be interested to know that one of the most commonly mispronounced words in the English language is "pronunciation".

Mark Syder (like the drink but spelt different)

ps (to Mark Grant) Got any paintings to sell?
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

I've just remembered another difference between American and English. This comes courtesy of Alexei Sayle (an English comedian)

"They say things differently in America. They say elevator, we say lift.
They say president, we say stupid psycopathic git!"

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
Steve Steel
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Hi

For a good base even of English look at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/index.shtml

Even in england a native english speaker differs ├Г┬оf a dialect is used.

In Bristol then can even communicate without words


Steve Ste
If you want truly to understand something, try to change it. (Kurt Lewin)
Ralph Grothe
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Hi Ken,

I've almost forgotten this thread,
and was surprised to get more feedback lately.

I would like to apologize if I (inadvertently) offended your Australian feelings.
Honestly, I never would have expected to hurt someones' feelings by my rather sloppy assumptions about Australian ancestry,
which weren't meant too seriously.
Of course would I never assume such a vast country as Australia and its inhabitants to be of this stereotype.
I think I wouldn't have uttered what I had about Australians if I've ever had a chance to visit this fascinating country myself.
Unfortunately, you being virtually "down under" so far away from us in Europe that I fear I will never get that far.

Rgds.
Ralph
Madness, thy name is system administration
Cheryl Griffin
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

I've been tutoring a 2nd grader and never has it been so apparent at the difficulties of learning the English language.

There's a rule for everything:
"The E on the end make the vowel say it's name." Example: name is nAme

But there's multiple exceptions for every rule. Is it live (liv) or live (lIve)

Then are huge pronounciation differences if you live in the north vs south vs east vs west of the States in addition to huge differences if you live in the north vs south vs east vs west of each State.

If you want to speak "southern", be sure to add extra syllables to any word, especially 1-syllable words. The more syllables the more "southern" you are. ;^)
"Downtime is a Crime."
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

For many years, I have had in my music collection an album called "The Who Live at Leeds".

I recently read an article in which it said this album left the Who's fans wondering which part of Leeds they lived in!

And just to add to the confusion, "it's" means "it is" or "it has". The possessive form (the dog ate its bone) does not have an apostrophe. Yes, I know, nothing to do with pronunciation, but I do tend to be pedantic (although it does depend what you mean by pedantic).

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
Graham Cameron_1
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Mark Syder:

>>"it's" means "it is" or "it has".

Not really. "It's" can only mean "it has" if followed by got.

eg "My waste basket leaks. It's rubbish"
Does that mean it is rubbish, or it has rubbish? Or should that be garbage. Or even trash?

"It's getting warmer" = it is getting warmer.
"It's got warmer" = it has got warmer.

Ok. Prove me wrong someone...

-- Graham
Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done.
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Graham:

"it's been a long time" it's = it has.

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
Simon Hargrave
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Behold, the Apostrophe Protection Society!

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
RAC_1
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

A good thread. I have been looking at it for the last few days. We have a saying "the language changes every 10 km" What it means, it changes the way people talk, pronounce, their accsent. In this part of the world- India, we speak British Engilish as a result of colonial past. Most of the people still see it as difficult langauage to learn and master. That is the case, where the language is introduced in the 5th standard.

I have been trying very hard to know, learn the funny ways the English is spoken, And still think I am not good at it.

And after the fact that outsourcing is here to stay, we now must know this language very well.

Anil
There is no substitute to HARDWORK
Ralph Grothe
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Simon,

very interesting to find that they dedicated a whole website to the apostrophe.

I guess you wouldn't be too surprised to hear that in the German language the apostrophe enjoys widespread misuse and thus has a fair share in the increase of grammar violation.
Though unless you can read German this link won't be of much use to you, I also immediately googled over this German counterpart:

http://www.apostroph.de/

In German, as probably in many other languages, the apostrophe is used to denote one or more dropped letters to shorten things.
However in German grammar we do not have the socalled Saxon Genetive as you have in English.
But many, many Germans adopted this, maybe to be considered more "international".
So you can read shop signs like

Uschi's Backshop

(apart a funny mixture here of German and English, or "Denglish" as we call it in the word Back which is derrived from the word backen (i.e. to bake), so a bakery is meant

The correct German grammar would be

Uschis Backshop

(if you still insisted on the Denglish Backshop)
because the German Genetive is formed by simply adding an 's' to the subject.

Madness, thy name is system administration
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Simon,

Thanks for that link - a fascinating site. I'm just disappointed that Cain's Christmas Ale makes it on to the site as an offender. Cain's is my local brewery and their Christmas Ale comes highly recommended (and as Christmas starts so early these days it should be in the shops any day now!).

Anil,

I'm glad you're enjoying the thread. That means I'm justified in carrying on!

Given that we're all employed in computer maintenance I'm surprised we've got this far without anyone mentioning the word "maintenance". It's neither spelt nor pronounced "maintainance".

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
harry d brown jr
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Not sure of the source of this to give the author due credit (sorry):

That "southern accent" will do ya in every time...!

A good ol' boy had a flat tire, pulled off on the side of the road, and proceeded to put a bouquet of flowers in front of his pickup truck and one behind it, then just stood back and waited...

A passerby from the city studied the scene as he drove by and was so curious he turned around and went back.

He asked the fellow what the problem was.

The fellow replied, "Flat Tire."

In response the passerby asked, "But, what's with the flowers?"

The man responded, "When ya' break down they tell ya' to put flares in the front and flares in the back.........I ain't never understood it neither.

********************

And to Ken Hayes, Who's to say what side of the road is correct? But in naval terms the right (starboard) (on-coming traffic to your left (port)) side of the road (water) is correct (most of the time) - Check this out: http://www.brianlucas.ca/roadside/

Also, doesn't Canada have more English speaking people than Australia??

live free or di e
harry
Live Free or Die
Chris Wilshaw
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

The BBC have come up with this one today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3595816.stm
Ralph Grothe
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Harry,

so you Southerners say flares instead of flowers?

Thanks for the interesting link on the "right" side.
It's funny, but there seem to be a lot of languages that consider right (i.e. starboard) as being analogous to "correct".
This goes of course for the ambigous meaning of "right" in English.
The same is true for German where right (in terms of side) means "rechts", and someting being right "das ist recht".
Also the German word for law or a right is "das Recht".
In German we also say if someone is behaving clumsily "er ist linkisch" ("links" being "left" in German).
As far as I know it's similar in French
where there is "a droit", "droit", "le droit", or "tout droit".
Madness, thy name is system administration
Ralph Grothe
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Chris,

yesterday I read an article in the German FAZ paper that reported on intentions of various European countries to tighten language tests for citizenship applicants.
As for German citizenship, while the testers weren't stressing proof of national and culural "values" that much (like e.g. British authorities favour) it read that in Germany they intend to claim proof of some 600 hrs. of German lessons from applicants (n.b. the lessons will be sponsored by the government for those needy) before approval.
However I have the suspicion that many native German speakers wouldn't pass the test.
Madness, thy name is system administration
Rita C Workman
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Interesting post...

superceded is pronounced super-seeded

Relax...listening to Brit's I notice they have as much variety in pronunciation as we folks in the US of A. Often time it is simply a matter of training your ear to the nuance of how something is pronounced locally. Boston vs New York accents can sound as foreign as someone from Maine talking to someone from Alabama. So put up the dictionary Ralph...it doesn't always help.

Speaking as a Northerner (Ohio) who is now living in W.V., it only took me a couple years to translate "j'eet j'et" to "did you eat yet" (phonetically written)...

So buy y'all..
Rita
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Rita,

Is superceded the correct American spelling? In England it is superseded.

J'eet j'et wouldn't mean anything to an English person - we'd say "Have you eaten yet?" Another difference between English and American - we have more than one past tense!

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
Ian Dennison_1
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

You get some interesting regional variations on pronunciation as well,

Ask an dinkie-die Aussie to say these words, and try to pick the difference,...

Pool and Pearl
Six and S3x
Booty and Beauty

Share and Enjoy! Ian
Building a dumber user
Rita C Workman
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Mark,

You are correct that my spelling of the word superseded was and is inaccurate. As is the mistype of 'buy' when it should have been 'bye'.

As for the number of past tenses you possess. I have enough tense in my life, you can enjoy the extras.

Rita
MarkSyder
Honored Contributor

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Rita,

Strangely enough, I didn't even notice "buy".

I usually find self-hypnosis is good for tension. Or failing that, beer!

Mark
The triumph of evil requires only that good men do nothing
Geoff_39
New Member

Re: Off Topic: English Pronunciation

Superceded is not an incorrect speeling of the word:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=supersede
Just another example of how the convoluted history of english leads to its inconsistencies.