Please post your forums issues - August 2004

[Kimberly Ann]

Charles, I'm sorry you don't appreciate the new closed thread feature. We'll take your comments into account the next time we are able to release new functionality.

-Dan

[Kimberly Ann]

All...

FYI, tonight (Wednesday August 25th) at 9pm EST, the forums will be down for about 30 minutes for a database upgrade. We'll try to restore the service asap. This effort is related to the recent performance issues which we hope to resolve soon.

Thanks,
Dan

[Patrick Wallek]

I think the close thread feature is fine, and I do like it. I think it is just going to take some time for the users to get used to it and learn how to use it properly.

Hmmm....Sounds like it may be time for an update to my etiquette document.

Y'all have all done quite a good job Dan. Keep it up!

[charles k. norman]

There is a difference between drawing attention to fundamental flaws in a system and not appreciating something. My personal view is that there are some circumstances where locked threads from the outset might have some merit. I would equally consider that after a period of time it is better that threads should be locked automatically. I tend to think 2 months since the last post is more than sufficient. Indeed I would auto-lock all the forum issues posts because there is no value to someone posting today in say the January 2004 thread when you are running a thread for August 2004. That does not prevent someone looking back as I have done on your forum issues threads from January 2003.

As you have rightly noted recently elsewhere this is a peer to peer forum and thus the idea that something can be posted without a decent interval for people to comment or raise queries is alien. One of the Human Rights planks of HP may possibly be infringed by this change if someone can post and lock and deny the right of reply in the thread in question during a reasonable period. I presume you have had this fully checked out by the lawyers prior to implementation. If not I would suggest that you do so.

TERMINOLOGY

In addition a thread can be closed without any replies. The FAQ states closure preventing additional replies when in fact no one needs to have posted for the author to have closed the thread. Thus the terminology in the FAQ is open to question.

You also refer to new message in the FAQ. Under the questionable change from message to thread the buttons read start new thread. Something only becomes a thread when there has been more than one post in it. If it remains that way then it cannot be a thread by definition. The same applies if someone posts a message and then closes it - that cannot be a closed thread.

--------------------------------------------
FAQ DEFINITION

"Thread: This is a discussion consisting of an original `new message' or topic followed by one or more replies to the new message or topic."
--------------------------------------------

[Patrick Wallek]

Hmmm...Differences of opinion...You got to love it.

The system is not perfect. Neither are we as human beings. It is an imperfect system being used by imperfect people. You are never going to get everyone to agree to everything. Yes, there probably will be some people that abuse the system. That happens no matter what you are talking about. Is there any way to make the system perfect? Nope. Is there any way to make people perfect? Nope.

I think we first just need to let things settle a bit and see how things are going in a month or so.

[charles k. norman]

Any developer knows the folly of unleashing a system untried and hence untested. It may be imperfect but at least taking precautions all the obvious flaws can be ironed out before the product is launched. However, one can always take an ambivelent route and not pay attention to detail.

[Patrick Wallek]

Ambivalent? No. Just realistic.

There have been numerous upgrades to the Forums in the 4 years or so that I have been posting. Not all of them have been smooth. A couple have had some issues. The issues have always been worked out. Eventually. Sometimes it has taken a few weeks to get them worked out, but they have been worked out.

Even the best software has serious bugs. Any issues, real or perceived, will likely be worked out. Some may not be and we may just have to live with them.

Try to have some patience with Dan and the Forums development team.

Nothing I have seen with the "closing thread" feature is a major issue, in my opinion. I think it's just a matter of getting used to how it works.

[Stuart Browne]

Charles' suggestion of auto-closing a thread might not be a bad idea (for future addition).

However, not closed based on the age of the thread, but based on when the last post was.

There are some threads here (the humor ones in particular) which were opened a number of years ago, but still get the odd post now and then.

[Alexander M. Ermes]

Hi Dan.
Sorry for causing trouble again by closing my stone-aged threads. SEP's idea for the old threads does not look that bad at all.
Rgds
Alexander M. Ermes

[Michael Schulte zur Sur]

Hi,

I am getting occasionally, when I want to have a look at the current top list of kings this:
null - member list

All have been wiped out? ;-)

Michael

ps. I like the idea of autoclosure depending of last post. Sometimes you have to use it in production because only then all the "fools" can help to make it foolproof. LOL :-)
I mean, you cannot foresee all, what people are going to do with it.

[Robert Abbott]

Human Right planks? There are no human rights being violated here. This is an HP provided forum just as there are many other privately owned forums across the internet. It has its guidelines and features which you agree to, the "Terms of use".

Make your suggestions and move on.

The human rights plank I enjoy the most is "free will". I like it here so I stay. If you don't like it, there are other forums to hang out in.

[Bharat Katkar]

Dan,
PLease go thr' this thread.
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=681265
Thanks,
Bharat

[charles k. norman]

Congratulations Robert on your very first post since registering over 2 years ago. I am impressed that it has taken my intervention here to bring you out into the open.

Luckily corporate governance is not dependent on your views. You might like to make a start reading what HP is doing not only to comply with its minimum obligations but in fact going way beyond that to establish the highest levels of best practice across the globe on the issue of HR.

Fortunately HP IMO recognise that unfettered free will of the type you express is an intellectually bancrupt notion and that it has to adopt policies across every sphere of its operations that meet the high standards of legislation and conventions.

I am pleased that HP in this respect both internally and externally has been recognised for its outstanding achievement in this field. Indeed HP has also done much to ensure HR are respected outside its sphere of control. Indeed these forums are part of HP activity in the field to provide access by employees, customers, users, etcetera. Indeed one can say HP is a world leader. Sorry to disappoint you but I shall not be moving on and you will see why if you read my profile - where at least seemingly unlike you I am prepared to devote time to volunarily help people in the HP Forums.

[Robert Abbott]

Easy boy. No need to attack my record.
The few posts I made were removed.

[Patrick Wallek]

No personal attacks here, please! Everyone is entitled to an opinion. No need to criticize someone because they don't agree with you.

[charles k. norman]

There is no attack Robert - just a statement of facts in reply to your suggestion that I move on. What I noted was a comparison mutatis mutandis. Messages conforming to the forum guidelines, which you relied upon in your first post are not deleted and thus ipso facto you you make your own case as to the standard your posts met and why inter alia there was none shown in your forum profile.

[Willem Grooters]

On the lock feature:
I wasn't aware of the discussions before I found out about it - and read some comments on this.

Ok - jsut some thoughts on this:

Locking a thread is a good thing. It signals the rest of the community "I've got my answer".
BUT:
- It disallows others to discuss the matter any further - and keep the whole issue together. That _may_ be a reason NOT to close the subject. Would it be reasonable that the author, at one point, could decide not to sumbit points - so ANY answer from that point on would get 1-3 points automatically - just by taking part. Or no points would have to be granted from that moment on.
- Would it be an idea to store closed threads in some "archive" cabinet, since I think these are less likely to be examined. This will free resources for open, running threads. Should not be done immediately, but after some time (2-3 months?)
- "automatic closure" seems feasable to me. Though it might be possible that an answer comes up after several months, I don't think that will happen very often. Therefore, a thread could be closed "due to lack of continuous response" if there hase been no response at all - from others than the author, might be an addition to that, to prevent keeping it open by the author.

Willem

[Willem Grooters]

Dan (and others)

Just realized when positing the previous message, I think that the messages on closing should go in the ITRC forums/general category, not only within HPUX/general.

Willem

[Steven E. Protter]

Admiring the deep dark quote of me.

Yes, I did have a method for closing a thread even without the feature.

I like the feature, though perhaps in hindsight perhaps popping a thread to the top when closed may be better as a user option.

I'm sure thats default behavior or the way the database keyes were set up and probably a bear to fix. We've had these issues with oracle app's in the past.

Some form of user testing and feedback would be wonderful though I understand the logistics of such an environment would be difficult.

Kinda glad i was off camping the past few days. Till i got rained on.

SEP

[charles k. norman]

Is there any way threads like the one below, which currently has 472 posts in it could be split into parts or the post order shown in reverse order to save time in scolling down all messages to get to the latest ones.

http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=641503

In the alternative when a message thread has reached say 60 messages could it autoclose with the first 50 replies as Part n of message and Part n+1 of the message opens with the last 10 replies? Or perhaps a bit like a search function the answers could be paged to bring up the latest answers with earlier answers on other pages. This would imrove the navigation and download times for long threads.

[Robert Abbott]

Is there any way to have an ignore feature like other forums do so that you can set a flag to ignore posts by certain users?

[charles k. norman]

Wonderful idea Robert to match your quote of e=mc2. A personal censor button! Perhaps you could help develop it with your skills. I appreciate you may want to give this one a miss as you are pressed for time and want to cut down on your reading. However, can you post the links for the forums that do this and perhaps the management can see how to implement it.

SEPARATE POINT: IMPROVED ACCESSIBILITY

At times I do some work for people who have disabilities and wonder HP if you could introduce a text to voice reader for messages in the forum for those with reading difficulties and impaired eyesight to improve accessibility to the forum for such good people. And yes also to include voice to text for message preparation. HP you do a lot of good work and are to be commended for the charitable initiatives you get involved in in so many sectors. Looking into this and implementing it would be a significant step forward.

[Jeff Schussele]

OK - I don't know about others, but this whole debate is becoming quite tiresome. I would suggest that certain posters:

1) Not be so **** sensitive
and
2) If they need to take a certain topic dealing with forum operations to such minute detail they use this link:

http://us-support.external.hp.com/usage/bin/doc.pl/screen=usageQuestion/distrib_redir=0+1093541876|*

That's what it's there for, thank you.

Rgds,
Jeff

[Stuart Browne]

Can these two threads be moved to more appropriate places:

http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=683230
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=598391


One has no posts, the other seems resolved, but neither are Linux-based questions.

[Cheryl Griffin]

I cannot move the 1st thread because it seems to belong in BSF vs ITRC, but I did suggest he post his question elsewhere.