Stand alone backup

[Petran Bisschops]

Dear all,

What I am trying to do is to make a standalone backup from the system disk and put the resulting save set on an arbitrary data disk for storage (save set).

I booted standalone backup from a data disk and issued the following command:

$ back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:b.sav/sav

where dkb0 is my system disk and dka0 is a data disk with a normal files-11 formated disk structure that is already populated with files but enough room to hold the backup save set.

I get the following error message:

$backup-f-savsetclu save set disk cluster factor must be 1

Can somebody tell me if this is at all possible? Looking at the examples in the system manage manual the command

$back/image/ver dua1: mua0:backup.bck/re/label=pppp

should work but then again mua0 is a tape. Is there a difference on how a tape is handled as oppose to a disk as destination.

I know it is possible to restore a saveset to a disk which is the other way round. Something like
$backu/imag/ver dkb0:back.sav/sav dka0:
where dkb0 is a CD.


If I try this with a running system using the backup command, it works. Is there a functional difference between the VMS-backup command and the backup command available via standalone backup?

Your help would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Petran Bisschops

[Jan van den Ende]

Petran,


$ back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:b.sav/sav


The error is in the output specification: it is lacking a directory spec.

If you want it to go to the top level of the disk, make that:
$ back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:[000000]b.sav/sav

or create a special dir, and use

$ back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:[]b.sav/sav

success!

Proost.

Have one on me.

jpe

[Vladimir Fabecic]

There is no big difference between stand-alone backup commands and running VMS system backup commands.
But maybe you missed something.
I will give you an example how to backup dka0: to some save set on dka100:
After standalone boot:
$$$ mount/over=id/nowrite dka0:
$$$ mount/over=id dka100:
Create some directory on dka100. Creating save set in disk root may confuse you, but you can do it.
$$$ create/dir dka100:[backup]
$$$ backup/image/log dka0: dka100:[backup]dka0.bac/save
To restore save set:
After standalone boot:
$$$ mount/over=id dka100:
$$$ mount/foreign dka0:
$$$ bacup/image/log dka100:[backup]dka0.bac/save dka0:

I did backup and restore like this many times and never had problems. VMS backup is something superior. No OS has better backup utility.

[Uwe Zessin]

(Just a minor note as I feel the main point to your question was already addressed)

> $ back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:b.sav/sav
...
> %backup-f-savsetclu save set disk cluster factor must be 1

You have inadvertently tried to create a "sequential-disk save set", which was useful with small, removable media, but as you can see, did not keep up.

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

I have tried the following according to Jan's advice:

Booted standalone backup and got $ prompt.

$back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:[]b.bck/sav
$back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:[000000]b.bck/sav
$back/image/ver dkb0: dka0:[kits]b.bck/sav

All of these attempts failed wit he error message as stated in my original post e.g.
$backup-f-savsetclu save set disk cluster factor must be 1

Vladimir:
if I boot VMS from the system disk, then of course your commands would work. But i have standalone backup booted to make a 100% copy of the system disk. During Standalone backup, only the backup command is available.

Uwe,
Can you elaborate on that? Does that mean I have to adjust my backup parameters or is it just not possible to do what i want using a 'normal' build in disk as oppose to a removable media.

Cheers,

Petran

[Uwe Zessin]

did you mount the target disk before executing BACKUP?

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

Uwe, I am using/booted stand-alone backup in the above problem. Only the backup command is available then.

Cheers,

Petran.

[Steven Schweda]

Can you boot from a (relatively recent) VMS
installation CD-ROM to get the real-VMS
BACKUP (with the "$$$ " prompt VF mentioned)
instead of the old, more limited, Standalone
BACKUP? ("BOOT /10000000 ",
or something like that. Maybe "/R5:10000000",
if your box is more modern.) The V7.3
Hobbyist CD-ROM works, so a real VMS V7.3
installation CD-ROM should work. (When did
this feature first arrive?)

Can the real (old) Standalone BACKUP do this
as requested? How would you mount the disk?
Isn't it pretty much limited to a /IMAGE copy
or restore to a disk?

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

To supply some more information,

The 24*7 production vaxes we have are quite old 4000-106 models running VMS 6.2. They have no CD-ROM attached - only a tape device.

Cheers,

Petran.

[Steven Schweda]

As I don't see a way to make an old Standalone
BACKUP do what you want, I think that you're
doomed to boot real VMS from another disk. A
VMS V7.3 installation CD-ROM would normally be
easiest (a VAX 410x has SCSI built in, doesn't
it?), but you might need to add a small disk,
install VMS on it, and then boot from there
to do the real work. Especially if you can't
easily add a CD-ROM drive, or if you can't get
a newer VMS CD-ROM. (Unless the
boot-real-VMS-from-CD stuff is older than I
think it is.)

A full hardware inventory might help reduce
the bad guesses as to what's possible.

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

The production vaxes i have are all of type 4000-106 having three disks each 2GB attached. One is the system disk (VMS6.2) , the other 2 are data disks in use by the application. Furthermore, there is tape drive attached. That's all.

I just managed to cleanup one of the data disks to have enough room to store a backup save set of the system disk.

There is no way i get authorisation to either physically add a disk or to clean/wipe an existing data disk to do a backup from disk -> disk. Downtime is almost not an option - maybe 1 hour max.

Cheers,

Petran.

[Steven Schweda]

If you can't do it with what you have, and
you can't add anything, then I don't see a
good solution.

I still like the external SCSI CD-ROM drive
with the new-enough VMS CD-ROM. A cheap-junk
drive should be under $20, and you could
probably get a CD-ROM image from several of
the folks here (or buy the Hobbyist CD-ROM
for $30). Including a cable, and a lot of
shipping and handling, you _might_ be able
to spend $100, but it wouldn't be easy.

Every system should have a CD-ROM drive.
Even _my_ obsolete junk systems have CD-ROM
drives. (They may be Toshiba XM3401 (4X)
drives, but they have them. The 1987
VAXstation 2000 is the only exception.)

Everything else I've thought of so far would
be more work, more money, and more down-time.

[Andy Bustamante]

The system managers manual (v5) states: "Stand alone backup employes a subset of backup qualifiers and only performs image and physical operations."

This means you won't be able to mount a disk and write a backup save set with stand alone backup. You also won't be able to restore a backup save set file from stand alone backup.

You still have some choices. A system disk backup to tape is the best option. Having several copies, in different locations is recommended of course. You could copy one of your data disks to tape and use stand alone backup to create a second bootable system disk, then restore your data. This would give you a second boot disk, "just in case."

Another option, that HP won't recommend but that has a history of success. Create an image backup of your system disk while booted. You'll get assorted error messages, log and account files won't get completely recorded. You should pick a time with no (or low) login activity. A regular backup with a fall back to a occasional stand alone backup may meet your needs. You need to know that this will probably work, have a fall back position and have your business requirements accept "probably work." A financial trading company wouldn't accept this solution for example. A machine shop that last tuned it's VAX in 1991 and only rebooted for the power outage won't have a problem.

Andy

[Robert_Boyd]

Petran,

Have you tried specifying the /LABEL= on your output disk device on your backup command?

I am pretty sure that many moons ago I did something pretty much like what you are trying to do. I think if it's going to work you either may have to specify the label or use the /IGNORE=LABEL/NOINIT. What I don't understand is why the software thinks it can't work with a cluster size larger than 1. The HELP/MESSAGE for this error doesn't help much either.

I am pretty sure that if you have a disk that is initialized and has nothing on it, that if you do a backup of the form you specified will put the saveset in the [000000] directory. What happens if you specify /BLOCK=something ?

Robert

[Vladimir Fabecic]

Hello
I didn't noticed that you are speaking about vax and "old style" stand alone backup.
Using this type of backup you can not do backup to save set on hard disk. Because disk must be MOUNTED to do that, and you can not mount disk from this standalone backup.
You can do backup to save set only to tape.
You can do direct backup disk to disk only (for example $ bac/image dka0: dka100:).
Not sure for 7.3 VMS, but 6.2 works like that.
There is another option you can use, of course, not so good as "cold backup":
- stop all applications
- stop all network services (TCP IP, LAT and DECNET)
- stop queue manager (very important)
- then do $ BACKUP/IMAGE/LOG/IGNORE=INTERLOCK dka0: dka100:[backup]dka0.bac/save
Long time ago (when vax machines were production servers) I restored two system disks from backups made like that.
Of course, CD boot or another system disk is the best way.

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

Robert,
I tried all kinds of combinations using the /noinit, ignore=label, label=, block_size=32256 parameters etc but all in vain.... in all cases, it displayed the error message

$backup-f-savsetclu save set disk cluster factor must be 1

(Does anybody understand this error message?)

Andy,
I take the point that standalone backup only offers a sub-set of the backup qualifiers but it seems very odd to me that one and the same command works if I use a tape device as destination but does not work if I use a disk device as destination e.g

$back/image/ver dkb0: mua0:bck.sav/sav /labe=ppp => works!

$back/image/ver dkb0: dka100:bck.sav/sav /labe=ppp => does NOT work!

A system backup to tape is not a good option for us for the following reasons - it requires more downtime and the second - even better one - is that the goal of this all is to port the VAX to a CHARON emulation which has no tape drive....

Steven,
On another VAX 4000-106 that does have a CDROM build in, I tried to boot in the real "backup" using the VMS 6.2 installation CD and it worked - I got the $$$ prompt and I could create the backup.
Is there any way I can somehow load this minimal $$$ system to a disk?. If at all possible, what much diskspace would this consume?

Cheers,

Petran

[Uwe Zessin]

> $backup-f-savsetclu save set disk cluster factor must be 1
>
> (Does anybody understand this error message?)


I thought I have explained what it means:

the target disk is treated like a tape device.


You can make a BACKUP/IMAGE copy of the V6.2 CD contents to a disk - this will provide you with a simple VMS system. But do not forget that it will wipe out the target disk!! Else, you can manually copy the directory trees, make the alias entries and write the bootblock.

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

Uwe,
Seems to me like a shortcoming (bug?) of the backup command - from the device specification, it can very well determine if it is a tape or disk device and act accordingly e.g. not assume all destinations are tape devices.....

Is there a way I can trick backup to treat it as a disk device or modify backup parameters so a 'tape-like' commands work on the disk as well or should I just conclude that standalone backup cannot be used to achieve what I wanted?

Cheers,

Petran.

[Uwe Zessin]

It's not a bug - it's how it was designed 20 years ago. And it has not much developed 10 years later - except for a bootable CD.

[Uwe Zessin]

If you're bored - here is some more info:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/73final/6017/6017pro_044.html#savesets_seqdisk_bck

You see - it's only of limited use today and there is no 'trick' available, because advanced ODS handling is just not implemented in standalone backup.

[Steven Schweda]

> On another VAX 4000-106 that does have a
> CDROM [...]

As I said, every system should have a CD-ROM
drive.

> Is there any way I can somehow load this
> minimal $$$ system to a disk?. If at all
> possible, what much diskspace would this
> consume?

I found a VMS V6.1 (April 1994) CD-ROM in my
archives, and it looks as if everything is in
[SYS1...] (with the old ("classic"?)
Standalone BACKUP in [SYS0...]).

ALP $ dire /size /grand [sys0...]

Grand total of 3 directories, 129 files, 6832 blocks.

ALP $ dire /size /grand [sys1...]

Grand total of 21 directories, 662 files, 48541 blocks.

I assume that V6.2 is bigger, but it should
be similar. I haven't tried it, but a simple
BACKUP of cd:[SYS1...] to disk:[SYS1...]
might be good enough. (You could change the
"1" to something else, too, if you wish.)

A quick Google search for "VAX writeboot"
suggests that you don't need to worry about
that.

Only one way to find out.

What could go wrong?

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

Stephen,
Good idea, I will try to install it as per your suggestion tomorrow or next monday. I will then post the outcome.

Cheers,

Petran.

[Art Wiens]

You mention the model of disks you have, but not the "type". Do they happen to be StorageWorks "bricks" in a shelf? You're taking the system down to do standalone backup anyways, get a fourth spare disk and replace one of your data disks and do an image backup to it...put it back on the shelf when you're done.

This (if possible) would provide you with better recovery capability if your system disk goes south. What are you going to do with a saveset of your system disk (on disk) when your production system disk crashes? Hopefully you will have standalone backup built on your two data disks.

Other than that, you have to insist on an outage window to do a standalone backup to tape.

You have to have something to fall back on unless you're really prepared to build a new VMS system disk when the production fails! That might be a bit more of an outage window when that time comes.

Good Luck,
Art

[Petran Bisschops]

Hi,

Art,

As I mentioned in one of my previous responses...

>A system backup to tape is not a good
>option for us for the following reasons -
>it requires more downtime and the second -
>even better one - is that the goal of this
>all is to port the VAX-es to a CHARON
>emulation which has no tape drive hooked up to the PC-hardware running windows as host....

I have to replace 6 vax installations on different production locations in Europe with Charon emulations and frankly I have no idea how the hardware is exactly boxed at every location.

I only need the system backup for migration to Charon-VAX. The major factor in this is to reduce down time to a bare minimum.....

So I will probably have to get my hands on a portable CD drive and boot $$$ to make my backups...

Cheers,

Petran.