Please post your forums issues - August 2004

[Pete Randall]

Merijn,

I think the ones you're seeing that move up the stack are the ones that Massimo is adding one last "closed" entry to. It's not the act of setting the thread to closed, it's the additional post that moves it up.


Pete

[Massimo Bianchi]

Hi all,
sorry for the inconvenience, but when i found the option to close my old thread, i didn't think that they would have come up.

Since i'm still getting some mail for very old post, i though that now was a good moment to close them.

Once again, i'm sorry.

Regards,
Massimo

[Cheryl Griffin]

Pete,
I just tested it. It appears that you are forced to enter text when closing a thread.

We need the ability to close the thread without having to enter text to keep these threads suppressed.

No problem Massimo. It helped us uncover an issue we can use to make the Forums better.

[Massimo Bianchi]

HI,
one little note: I found that, when closing a thread, you have the option of specify a flag with "one on the answer worked for me" ( something like this).

I think that the bunny may come if this is flagged.

HTH,
Massimo

[Pete Randall]

That's definitely a bug then. Thanks, Cheryl.


Pete

[Pete Randall]

Interesting:

When Cheryl tested closing a thread with her " June 2003 Core & Support Plus media is not changing " thread, a bunny got posted on the thread, despite the fact that nothing over 4 points was awarded to any of the responses.

Out of curiosity, I tried closing my "Who's NOT going to HPWorld" thread, which had nothing higher than 2 points - and there was no bunny flagged after I closed it.

I wonder if Cheryl re-opened her thread if the bunny would go away????



Pete

[Pete Randall]

Sorry, I forgot to identify the threads.

Cheryl's:
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=51088

Mine:
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=638143


Pete

[Cheryl Griffin]

Pete,
I reopened the thread with the "remove closing post" option and not only did the bunny (seem to) disappear, the thread is gone (probably back several hundred pages). I don't see it in the first few pages and there's not enough time to keep hitting "next page".

[Ganesh Babu]

Hi Dan,
With this close thread feature in place, I think we might need 2 more links in my questions for showing the close threads and open threads like the below..

my question(s)

questions or topics with rated solutions
questions or topics with unassigned points
questions or topics still open
questions or topics which are closed
questions or topics I have posted:


Ganesh

[Kimberly Ann]

SEP, the 'null' threads are relics, they shouldn't appear. I couldn't find one in your questions list, perhaps you can point me to one. Thanks for testing the new features.

Pete, done.

Robert-Jan/Cheryl/Pete/Mark/Procura, as Massimo points out, the author can close their thread and indicate a solution was found by marking the checkbox. This allows the author the option to post their own solution and indicate it with a bunny. Therefore, the bunny will appear similar to if the author assigned someone 8-10 points. This now makes the bunny icon a solution indicator for authors who end up finding their solution elsewhere and post it here for others to read. So, whether closing a thread and marking the soluitons box, or assigning points 8-10, the author should be sure there is a solution.

All, agree that when a thread is closed it should not bubble up to the top. Looking now to see if we can make that happen.

Ganesh, good idea, although the last one (topics I have posted) can be found through one's profile lists by clicking 'more'.

Thanks,
Dan

[Jeff Schussele]

Hi Danno,

Well, here's the first case that being able to close a thread may not be the best thing...this thread from Christoper Hodson. He closed a thread that needs to be replied to - i.e. his SSH problem was due to the fact that SSH is entirely dependent on SSL. He upgradede one & not the other.
I really don't know how I could get that msg to him...now.

Best Rgds,
Jeff

[Volker Borowski]

Hi,

strange Search-results today.

"RMAN performance" had a lot of double hits to the same thread (10:27 MEST).

Was able to login with BR* account on Asia/Pacifc Server... When did you fix that ? Very nice.

Volker

[Alexander M. Ermes]

Hi Dan.
The pain in the neck is here again.
Can you pls let me know, why the forum pages are either very slow or not working at all during the last 5 or 6 days ?
Just a matter of interest.
By the way, it looks like SEP charged up his electric fingers again. :-)
Rgds
Alexander M. Ermes

[charles k. norman]

I concur with the comment of Jeff below and have made the following observations in the BSF:-

7.1 Furthermore, if in fact later research shows that the answers in a thread are patently dangerous or wrong there is no opportunity to place a message in a closed thread to restate the position based on subsequent technical knowledge. An unsuspecting user might come across the closed thread and use the closed thread and the risk could be higher because no one could post a message in it to provide the correct solution.

7.2 Much of the closed message might be correct but one part crucially wrong and needs to be amended. How are those circumstances going to be dealt with in this forum. Is it a request to delete the thread in its entirety, as it cannot be opened up other than by the author. That process denies a user access of the main part of the solution plus any crucial amendment.

7.3 If it just stays unamended then the user may be exposed to damage to their system.

7.4 Let's say I have typed an answer that is patently wrong and overnight the author just closes the thread then I have lost the opportunity to post a correction in the thread to my answer. Thus in granting the Question Author the right to close the thread you are denying the persons who answer the questions the fundamental right to amend an answer that the members of the forum need to correct (their own answer) merely for the inconvenience of points.

7.5 The thread closure provides an opportunity for someone to come along and post a spoof piece of information and close the thread before anyone has been able to say the the post is wrong. People doing that can show their thread as a solution.

7.6 Unless the Question authors are careful there is a probability that they will not close their thread properly and thus it will show up as a solved thread even though no points have been awarded or none greater than 7 to a single answer.

7.7 Another anomaly has been noted in another thread where it appears that you have to type another message in the closure process. Unless this has been corrected it leaves open the possibility that old threads being closed by the author will come back to the front page. It would, therefore, be appropriate if you could post here the instructions for proper closure of a thread.

7.8 The close thread button could be used by Authors just to post announcements and prevent any questions being raised about those announcements. Etiquette would normally allow for a right of reply but that right of reply can readily be denied by the close thread rights afforded to the question author. There is some moral obligation on the author to reply to answers in their own thread but that obligation can be avoided by using the close thread procedure.

7.9 Where authors close threads inappropriately and deny the right of reply to members of the forum then the unnecessary route of members starting a new thread can be used but there is no obligation on the closed thread author to reply to the comments on what is in the closed thread.

7.10 IMHO this thread closure has not been considered carefully enough to take account of abuse it could open up and the removal of the rights of the people who post answers to questions (e.g. right to amend answer, right to respond to a question author who directs a point at a person responding and then closes the thread to prevent a response by the person, etcetera).

THE BUTTONS

The Reply button is so small that it would seem more appropriate to separate it so that the two other buttons are pushed to the far left and a much more prominent reply button is put on the page. After all that is the primary purpose of the page. I think in using the mouse some people at speed will hit the "disable notification" button in error as found out in tests carried out yesterday.

[Pete Randall]

Thanks, Cheryl,

I reached pretty much the same conclusion about the bunny.

However, I have to question the need for the "close" feature at all. You may note that I've never asked for it in all the time that I've been posting my top 10 (or so) improvement list. As Jeff and Charles point out, there are just as many times when something may well need to be added as there are occasions when old threads get bounced to the top for no reason.

As far as the bunny thing goes, I think it's silly and will end up being misused. I'll quote one Cheryl Griffin:

"I agree with you all. The bunny should not be there unless the solution(s) have been awarded points."

This, in my opinion, is a feature of questionable merit that was not implemented very well. I hate to complain when the forums team has done such an outstanding job in responding to all our complaints, but this one just doesn't work.


Pete

[Cheryl Griffin]

You agree with my opinion yesterday ;^)

I now think that the bunny should be there to mark the answer only, not signify the points.

[Robert-Jan Goossens_1]

Hi Cheryl,

I believe the rabbit was intended to present a magical answer (>8), if a member can assign his own rabbit to his/here thread (with or without a solution) the rabbit looses his/her function. It would be something like assigning points to your own question.

Best regards,
Robert-Jan

Ps.
Could you remove this one.
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=680018

[Robert-Jan Goossens_1]

Add on,

From the ITRC - HPUX forum.

question status
magical answer
Message with a RESPONSE that solved the author's question.

Regards,
Robert-Jan

[charles k. norman]

I am not so sure that I understood. The Bunny has traditionally represented an active expression of the poster that the problem was solved and that was achieved by the award of points. It is by no means a perfect system but it does work and facilitates a rating by the question author of the calibre of the replies. I must say I have also found it useful in searches to find the excellent solutions presented here by members of the forums that have been rated by the question author by the award of points. If thread closure without the award of points of 8 pr more can lead to the bunny then it depreciates the value of the bunny. Furthermore, it is not possible to see which of the answers in the authers opinion solved the problem - especially where there are replies from a variety of experts and the author has not said X or Y or Z solved my problem. The closure of a thread should have no bearing on the appearance of the bunny. It is the award of the points on merit that should give rise to the bunny symbol - nothing more and nothing less. Those points are an indirectly an expression of thanks by the author and the quality of the response in the authors opinion. I appreciate not every author does follow the guidelines but it is not a perfect system. Nonetheless I question why a system that has in the main been well tried and tested and devalue it by making it open to abuse and even greater imperfection. It adds flaws rather than removing them.

[MarkSyder]

Just like Cheryl, I'm going to change my stance from yesterday.

I learn at least as much from the forums as I contribute to them. I frequently see questions that I think I could learn from. I keep an eye on those questions and, as soon as a bunny appears alongside a question, I open it to see what I can learn.

My objection yesterday was that a bunny appeared to be placed on all closed threads, whether or not they had been solved. If a bunny indicates a solution, whether provided by a forum member or by other means, then it serves a useful purpose. Provided, of course, the author puts the solution in his closing post. I would hate to see threads being closed with (for example) "A colleague fixed it for me" with no explanation.

Mark

[Kimberly Ann]

Jeff/Charles, I guess all I can say is 'closer beware'. Folks should leave a thread open until all possibilities are exhausted. If someone finds something terribly incorrect, an option is to post a new thread and point out the misguided thread. If it is critical, the thread can be modified. If down the road we feel the need to allow replies to closed threads (without placing the author in a position to award points), that is a possibility. Also, authors are asked to post a reason for closing their thread, but we are looking now at how to suppress the closed thread from appearing at top of category list.

Volker, I've reported the double hits on the search engine, thanks.

Alexander, we are working on the performance issue now. In fact, we are meeting in an hour to review options. It may be a case of spyders hammering the site.

All -- the closed thread feature was requested by a host of members over the past 18 months. The feature was implemented for a variety of reasons: allow authors to stop having to assign points to replies that are posted months later, to allow members to post FAQ type question-solution threads for others to consider, and to allow an author (who found their own solution after getting insufficient help from the community) to post a solution and indicate that with a bunny and an explanation. Keep in mind that the bunny has always been an indicator of a thread with a solution. Authors force the bunny to appear by rating a reply as a solution (by assigning 8-10 points). Now, whether the bunny is selected with a checkbox or by assigning 8 points to a reply, the author is still denoting a solution exists in their thread. The bunny will not automatically appear when a thread is closed -- the author must select the checkbox. As Mark points out, the key is that the author includes a solution statement. I hope the above helps.

Thanks,
Dan

[charles k. norman]

This matter has also been raised in the BSF under the thread below:-

http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=679620

I think this depends on a big "IF" that the poster does post the solution. At least with the present system the poster has to make an express choice as to whether an answer is a solution if they want their thread classified in such manner. If 3 answers are given and no points are awarded, and the poster does not say which one, it rather devalues the purpose of the bunny. Also it leaves the poster in the postion of awarding their threads with the magical solution without credit to those who have voluntarily given up their time to help the poster. I think the issue of the "bunny solution" and the closure of threads should be separated. They are not one and the same. Indeed I have seen a thread today where the poster has put forward some information and has then closed the thread on the same day as opened, without any opportunity to question the information and its source. At least an interval of time between the thread being opened and before it can be closed would be a positive compromise albeit that I think the close thread brings with it more disadvantages than benefits.

[Stuart Browne]

Please delete my post as at 02:58 in the thread http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=678885 . It was posted on the end of the wrong thread.

Reason being I've been having lots of troubles responding to posts this morning, I noticed froma bout 9am to midday local time (currently 2pm).

[Tom Ward_1]

Hello Dan,

I too noticed very slow response time over the weekend and again this morning around 06:00 MST on 24 Aug 04. Other sites that I routinely check were responding okay, so I suspect it was something specific to ITRC. It was very slow.

Regards,
Tom

[charles k. norman]

Last night in the UK the problem arose that posting a new message reported an error - so too did sending a reply.