POINTS - PART 8,765,129-b

[Sachin Patel]

I am not in favour of closing task where you can't post anything.

I am agree for assign 0 point automatically after certain days of inactivity.

Why? say I am searching for some problem and find some solution and I want to thank that person I would not be able to do it if taks is close.

Sachin

[Shannon Petry]

The issue with keeping threads open forever for the most part, is that people come back at later dates and add things. While this may not be a bad thing, how many of the members look for the points assigned/responses before answering? I know of a few that admitted it in the past, and Im sure there are more than who admitted it.


This impacts the user asking the question, and their next 10 questions. They may not be here in the forums but every few months when they cant fix something. They thought they did their part, assigned points and left. Then they find out that this is not true, and members are not answering their current issues because of it.

While we may want (we being the people here daily/weekly) to be informed of the answer that fixed a users problem, what I think alot of people do is forget who is helped the most by the forums. I'll give you a hint, it's not the people here daily/weekly, and honestly you probably dont see them even monthly.

Remember when you were a young new sys-admin with your first server? Hasty, wanna fix and go now to the next issue. And yes, we created many problems in haste, and have learned patience in what we do as well as gained knowledge. But, it's the entry level people we cater too, not the 5-10 year vets with libraries and volumes if info. These people get their answers and were lucky if they take the time to assign points. Let alone respond back with comments.

I am not in favor of a single 10 point answer either. I assume that many times it may take several to several dozen answers to completely resolve an issue. My comments about the 10 are more in line with: Common sense would say the author is done assigning points.

To me it also falls back to one major issue, which is people requesting points in threads.

When any of us Post,
"Dont forget to assign points", as a post, we obligate ourselves to the following.

1. You know that the person has had their issue resolved enough to assign points. Many people wait to get things fixed, then assign points.

2. You understand their work schedule and know that they are available to assign them when you expect them? I have asked things a day before vacation.

3 You understand that you have wasted all of our time by adding a post with completely self serving words, and nothing of benefit to anyone else.


When the magic bunny is on a thread, what usually happens is that several people jump late in the thread, then demand points. In the case Im using it was 2 days after the magic bunnies were assigned. Myself personally I have had this happen several times. I will assign the tardy posters 0's, but it still takes time out of my day to go put points on something that is a closed issue. If I make additions to a bunnied question, I will usually make it a point to say "NO POINTS" as I know the problem is resolved.


Lastly, I will not be cautious with the phrase "Point Mongers". If your feeling bad about the words, spend a bit of time in the mirror. I dont think the majority of members are offended by the phrase.

Anyway, keep the food for thought flowing.

And Roland, I will assign more than 0 to the answers, Im just contemplating the amount is all. Usually on non-technical threads I assign 0, but not in this case. Besides, I want to see you all fight for the magic bunny answer! ;)



Shannon

[RolandH]

OK - Shannon the race for the bunny is started.
(that could be said by Hugh Heffner =;-} )

Roland

[Ian Dennison_1]

My two-penny'th worth on the points mongers,..

One point to consider is the posting of several answers within a similar space of time (15-20 mins) of each other that basically say the same thing.

In this case, I would hope that all the posters within the timeframe would be rewarded. Noting the times would show the QA that there is a likelihood that several Users were researching and typing the answer at the same time, and were not aware of the previous answers having been posted. Of course, a 3 word answer at the end is likely to be an opportunistic one.

In addition, a QA can determine the value of a much later answer by the quality and substance (eg. following an answer involving a lengthy set of commands with the response " Command XXXXXX will do this for you", should deserve a 10). Likewise, some of the later and longer answers from our Olympians are well worth 10 for their educational value.

I believe most of us make these judgements above quite consistently and without need of guidelines.

We have had instances of bad points allocation quoted within this posting; do we have an indication of frequency and severity?

Null points pse.

Share and Enjoy! Ian

[Mark Greene_1]

I think that HP strikes a nice balance in maintaining the forums in an editorial rather than a moderated format. This has encouraged us posters to be more self-moderating in our topics, our content, and our tone. For the very most part, I belive that this has been quite successfull all the way around.

I would be very much against a "close" option on a thread for many of the reasons already given. I personally think that this is a "wag the dog" approach. The points are for feedback. As a feedback system, it is not perfect. I have seen 10s given to wrong answers, 3s (and less) given to what was ultimately the best advice, and many, many replies gone unpointed altogether.

I have seen threads go on and on well after the "correct" reply was given until a reply was made that directly addressed the symptoms the poster was seeing and concerned about, even though a solution was given that would have addressed the root cause of what was creating the symptoms in the first place. There are times when consideration to the original poster's perspective has to be made before the poster is going to hand out a bunny. Such is human nature.

I have also seen (and participated) in threads where the posters original question was just the first step in a longer process, and after the poster got his question answered, others continued to reply with advice and direction for what he was going to have to do in the later steps of the process. "Closing" a thread would be very counter-productive to this effort. It would also, IMO, send a message that would be contrary to HP's state reasons for the Forums existance are.

Personally, I do find the points to be a motivator for posting, particularly as I apporach a new hat. But, I also find that on the best of days I'm receiving points on maybe two-thirds of my replies, and on the worst of days, no points at all. This, too, is human nature.

Ultimately, I think we would do well to focus on the exchange of information, the willingness that those here have to do so, and the sense of community we can derive from that rather than on the points.

No points please, I had some time to ramble and did so.

[Kelli Ward]

I'm enjoying the opinions. This is interesting.
Probably a rehash but what the heck.

There are a lot of great things about this forum. The caliber of people, the professionalism and more. One of the other great things about it is also the points system. Everyone likes to feel they are contributing and be recognized and the points system is that recognition, it's almost like earning a wage where your wage is directly based on performance. This is not a bad thing it gives everyone the feeling of accomplishment. But, it's all voluntary.

Closing a thread is nice, but the same complaint will be apllied there as with the not assigning points. Many people just will not do this. Once they get their answer, they're outta here.

More over, if the first magic answer closes the thread, that denies that there is more than one answer that can contribute valuble insight.
Plus, it assumes the person requesting the information knows their best answer when they get it. Very possibly the reason they are asking is because they don't know.

Example: Adding a user in HP-UX.
Only one way to do it? No, you can use SAM, you can use useradd, you can do it manually, you can even build a script or program depending on your needs.

If the first person comes along with the SAM answer and the requester thinks "great!" assigns points and closes the thread.
Then someone with an awesome script comes along which is even better than the SAM option for that person's needs but wasn't quick enough is left out of the loop and the reward system is lost. So is the script writer's enthusiasm. We can't assume the person requesting information knows the best answer when they get it, that's why everyone's insight is so important. It gives choices.

More over I'm sure most of us have received points because we happened to give the best right answer for that persons particular circumstance, not because we were quickest.

Plus, some people simply don't use the best judgement when assigning points.

And there are those that will post reply after reply hoping to get points and there are those that get so happy that someone actaully is helping them, it's bunnies to all.

But, in the end, this is still voluntary and to start forcing rules and etiquette on people chips away at that and ultimately will turn both bad and more importatntly possible good forum members off this wonderful tool.

Is not assigning points and "verbally closing" a thread frustrating? Sure, heck I've yelled at my computer, "Was it fixed? How?"
But, this not being a perfect world, people can't be compelled to follow the rules in a voluntary system.

Despite any frustrations, this is the top as far as forums goes, but it is not a helpdesk and shouldn't be treated as one.

Let's face it, we all like helping, we like to learn in a pressure free environment and dang it we like each other's company, let's keep it that way.

I'll enjoy the points when I get them, deal with it when I don't and appreciate the insights always.

Don't change a thing Dan. It's great just the way it is.

Kel :-)

[Steven E. Protter]

Take a look at this thread:

http://forums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0xc0d368da2286d711abdc0090277a778c,00.html

Notice the first four replies, all valid solutions, all of which came within 1 second of each other.

It is an example of the strength of itrc.

Had it been my question, all those replies would have got bunnies. Quite simply because any of them would have solved the problem.

If it had been my question and someone else popped in 10 minutes later, they'd also probably get a bunny. With itrc's frequent slowdowns, I'd give the benefit of the doubt.

It is the responsibility of the poster to assign posts according to guidelines, though there is no enforcement system.

Dan: I like itrc the way it is. A post to close a thread is just fine with me.

SEP

[RolandH]

Shannon you said: "When the magic bunny is on a thread, what usually happens is that several people jump late in the thread, then demand points. In the case Im using it was 2 days after the magic bunnies were assigned. Myself personally I have had this happen several times. I will assign the tardy posters 0's, but it still takes time out of my day to go put points on something that is a closed issue. If I make additions to a bunnied question, I will usually make it a point to say "NO POINTS" as I know the problem is resolved."

Why you not stay this answer in the status *unassigned*? If this answer is right and worth to get a 10, because it is a different way as the others mentioned, but you will give 0 points only for a answer, who you know the problem is resolved. That gives the answer a weighting, which is not correct.

If someone searchs for a similar solution it could be that s(he) not take a look at this solution, because it was assigned with 0 points but it could be the best solution for the problem.

So the *unassigned* status in this case is the best. It means it is not rated by the QA and the reader can decide by himself if it is a solution for the problem.

OK - we have some weaknesses in the system but it is like it is. For me it's fine. There are always a few you can never do it well. So take it as it is.

These are my two cents (and last to this thread)

Roland

[Umapathy S]

hi,
When only the QA has good history of points, the people do reply. In my view it is correct. I dont want to reply to a dull, dumb QA who doesnt want to do any homework before asking too silly questions.
The unassigned status is still best. After so many days, I usually go back to my threads and assign points if someone replied beneath (even if I had closed the thread). I assign points depending upon the value it provides. I think that is always welcome.
This can be avoided by closing thread option but we may lose some improvements on the existing solution. And we cannot make this strict anyway as Kelli has said.


my 2 cents.

cheers
Umapathy

[John Carr_2]

Hi

I have been off the scene for 9 months but this was also my biggest complaint so please everyone who agrees keep raising the issue then we might get to be able to close a thread.

John.

[Paula J Frazer-Campbell]

John

Good to see you back on the forum.

Paula

[Shannon Petry]

Sorry it took so long to get back with this.

I would like to ask again about a "close thread" option though.

More thoughts?

Dan's input?






Sincerely,
Shannon

[Martin Johnson]

I think a close thread option should be available to the author. The author should decide when a thread is closed and he/she is no longer looking for input.

I try to assign points to all replies to my posts. However, I sometimes have to go back to assign points when I considered a post to be closed. Being able to close a post would save me the hassle of going back.

Marty

[Steven E. Protter]

I close my threads as follows:

Thread Closed.

No more points awarded unless the additional info is really AWESOME or earth shattering.

Discourages point mongers.

It works pretty darned well.

If they add a close thread option, I nominate this thread as teh first candidate for beta testing.

SEP

[Jim Mallett]

The closed thread option is a double edged sword. While you may cut out the point mongers (and there are a few) you may also cut off the ability to award points for a better answer. I could reply to a question and respond the best answer I know and it works for the user and I get a bunny. You may come along a few hours later and say "wait a minute, here's a more efficient way" or "wait a minute, here's a flaw with jim's idea", and you should be awarded for that.

There definitely should be a cap on how many points a user can get for a thread though. I saw one post on the BCDG where the user got almost 300 points. It was INSANE.

Unless HP overhauls the forum, or changes the point system it comes down to this for me; If I can help one person, I'm happy....points or no points. I've come to learn who to respect, and who...well, not to respect when it comes to answers (and their timeliness).

I do like the fact that the regulars are so passionate about the forum though, thats why things like this WILL eventually be worked out.

Jim

[Jeff Schussele]

******** SIGH *********
Sheesh folks COME ON.......
They're here.
They frequently don't assign points.
Get OVER it
Get USED to it.
THINK about what your goal is.
Ask yourself - WHY are you here?

I'm glad you're here & I don't care why you are.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[Sunil Sharma_1]

Hi,

I am agree with you.
but at the same point i have a small point to make,it will be good if we cam make it manadetory to summerise the solution once problem solved.
assiging 0 point after bunny may not be a good idea because for few problems there can be more then one solution and i think both deserve bunny it's just matter of approch...

I think we are here for sharing knowledge point are just bonus so enjoy knowledge sharing and leave this points issue....

sunil

[Shannon Petry]

Jeff,

You obviously read absolutely none of the context of the thread.

This is not about people assigning points or not assigning them.

Read first, then speculate or your speculations may not make any sense at all.

Shannon

[John Bolene]

I agree, there are givers and takers in this world. SOme folks will assign lots of points, some assign none.

Bunnies don't mean that it was solved, just that they felt like it was worth 10 points.

I give multiple 8-10 points out to all good answers.

[Michael Steele_2]

You know, a very good argument can be made about threads like this, or even the often referred to 'Forums Etiquette' thread as equals to the office 'Suggestion Box'. Where suggestions and comments to management can be made but have no guarantee of implementation.

[Jeff Schussele]

Shannon,

YOU titled your thread - not me.

I guess I could speculate on why you so obviously mistitled it, but I won't as I don't claim to so surely know why others do what they do. And I *certainly* don't think I have the right to tell anybody what to do & how to do it.

I'm simply tired of these whine posts - period.
I don't care if it's about points, resolutions or etiquette. It doesn't matter to me because these type posts add very little value to the forum - if any.
If one doesn't like the way things happen here in this forum, well, nobody's forcing anybody to participate. It's like broadcasting. If you don't like what's on the channel - change it - whining does no good.

Now, why don't we ALL get back to the task at hand - the dissemination and collection of knowledge.

Later,
Jeff

[Shannon Petry]

Jeff,

I titled the thread, but also wrote the context and read it a few times before submitting to make sure it conveyed a specific set of thoughts and arguments.

Requesting an additions to the forums and presenting arguments for them is not a bad thing in my mind.

If you dont like the thread, simply ignore it. Take your biased egocentric concerns away and dont bother making comments.

You have no business on a thread if you dont read anything past the subject.

You have less business on a thread when your main purpose is to flame and attempt to belittle people with name calling.

Your complaint is based on stereo typing a thread by title, and how little they add to the forums. Yet at the same time your inflamatory and deragatory comments do the same thing you claim to be against.

Your a Hypocrite.


Shannon

[Martin Johnson]

Shannon,

Ouch! Those flames hurt! Shame on you Jeff for causeing such a fire!

:-)
Marty

[Mike Fisher_5]

Shannon

DEFINITELY a close-the-thread option
Especially this thread